We talk about The Drama Triangle, introduced in 1968 by Stephen Karpman, and how it affects stress, conflict, trauma, and the sneaky little ways it shows up in our lives.
RESOURCES
Book discussed: How to Break Free of the Drama Triangle & Victim Consciousness
The Drama Triangle (and Freedom Triangle) animated video: https://www.vibrantagain.com/the-drama-triangle/
episode transcription
Heather Clark
Hello, and thanks for joining us. Today I have on the show my friend ManDee Nogle. ManDee is a speech therapist by training and by practice, which means a lot of things but essentially it boils down to brain plasticity.
Heather Clark
She also has a business where it’s brain training which helps your brain get into coherence and really allows for optimal function and all these wonderful things but basically it boils down to…do it. ManDee is a lot like me in that she has a science side and a woo side. And I just thought it would be so much fun to have her on in a segment called Heather and ManDee Talk About.
Heather Clark
So today, we are talking on the show about what she and I have been talking about a while, and that is: The Drama Triangle.
Heather Clark
ManDee, welcome to the show.
ManDee Nogle
Thank you, Heather, thank you so much for asking me to do this. I’m really super excited about it.
Heather Clark
Me too. I thought it would be a lot of fun because you and I talk about some really wonderful things. And for those of you who don’t know ManDee, ManDee reads about trauma theory for fun in her spare time. So she’s an excellent resource.
ManDee Nogle
It is true. It is true. I do do that. Yes.
Heather Clark
So I want to hear about how you’ve thought about the drama triangle and what has brought this top of mind for you.
ManDee Nogle
Well, it’s really interesting Heather because it was you that brought it top of mind which is why this is so magical and great that we are getting to have this conversation for your audience. But basically, you know, I do a lot of personal work. And part of the learning about trauma theory is definitely for the two jobs that I do. Knowing about how trauma theory works and how it shows up in our day helps me to be a better speech pathologist because I can reach my clients better if I understand some of the things they may be going through. It also helps me working with clients who are doing doing the brain training, and working in that realm because again, I can connect with them better and understand better where they’re coming from and where they’re hoping to go. So there’s a great professional part about that.
ManDee Nogle
But I have trauma as does everyone else on this wonderful Planet Earth and for me to show up in a good way or a functional way, with others, both professionally and personally. To me, it’s really, really important to understand how trauma shows up in your body and how it shows up in your behaviors in your relationships. So I study it for a lot of different reasons. And I’ve studied it for several years. I apply the principles that I learned in my own way of being and operating. Because I feel it’s really, really important to do that work.
ManDee Nogle
But there was a piece that was still showing up in my interactions that I would see it and I would say, Okay, I have all these tools, I’m using them. They’re working, things are working, but there’s still something like, I don’t know why this is still happening, or I don’t know why I’m so uncomfortable in this interaction or where it’s falling apart, and you and I had had a really great conversation and I love it. It was a day that I was supposed to come over you were going to dog sit my little dog and I was going to go hike with my other dog and It started raining. And so I could not go hike and ended up I spent the entire afternoon with you. And it was so serendipitous because it was not supposed to rain that afternoon. And we had this wonderful conversation where you said, Hey, you know, I’m noticing as you’re telling me the story, that this sounds like drama triangle stuff, and I was like, Well, what, what? What are you talking about? And you said, well, you’re showing up as the rescuer. And I’m like, Okay, I’m going to need some books and some links in some websites. And you’re like, awesome, because I have this handy little animation and so you sent it to me and it was just off to the races. So yes, that’s how I got started.
Heather Clark
I love it because I remember cuz I’m one of these people that I forget that once I’ve learned something, not everybody on the planet also know that
ManDee Nogle
Totally.
Heather Clark
Um, but yeah, and then I, I know that we talked about a bunch of different things. And it’s so much fun because I know when I first discovered it, the whole drama triangle thing I was like, well, this is everywhere.
ManDee Nogle
Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. Like, I had the same reaction to that. Well, this explains the planet. Yeah.
Heather Clark
And one of the things that helped me do to even just begin to see things through the lens of drama triangle was, okay, well, what’s really going on here and just cut through the crap? Um, yeah, and for those who are like, What are they talking about? Okay.
Heather Clark
Yes, so the drama triangle, it’s a triangle where the flat side is at the top and the bottom point is the victim. And then one of the top points is the rescuer, or the hero. And then the other point is the persecutor, or the villain. And really, the hero and the villain, they don’t really interact and communicate at all interacts and communicates through the victim. Which is like that. Whoa, whoa, is me. But the deal is, a lot of times we’re on the drama triangle. And we have no idea. We would recognize like, Oh, I’m not being a victim here. And when you really examine the behavior, like Oh, crap, I was totally the victim there. Whoops.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah, yes.
Heather Clark
And, yeah, so then ManDee, like finds it a great book, which is amazing. And this is the book that we have both read. It’s, it’s light and it well, it’s not like It’s not heavy, but it’s like short and it’s easy. And it’s called Breaking Free of the Drama Triangle and Victim Consciousness. And it’s by a Janae and Barry Weinhold, both PhDs and I believe they’re trained as therapists, if I understand that correctly,
ManDee Nogle
That is, that is what I understand. Yes.
Heather Clark
And then we were like, and now we must discuss.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah. Yeah.
ManDee Nogle
And for people listening, what is what was really great about this particular book is it’s only 88 pages. It’s a short little book, but it is so packed with information and insights. It’s great because you can get it really quick. And there’s not a lot of fluff. It’s just here we are, this is what it is. Now, let’s do this. So I highly recommend this book to really just hone in on this topic.
Heather Clark
Yeah, this is a great book if you’re like, you know, I just Want to make it work? Yeah, exactly. What do I need to do? Give me the shortcut. And I just really loved it for that.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Heather Clark
Yeah. And, and honestly, it’s not like I agreed with all of their perceptions. But I agreed with the upshot, like, how to make it go. I don’t need to completely buy into your worldview, to use the tools to make it work for me. So I thought Exactly.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah, it was really well done. I thought, yeah.
Heather Clark
And then I’m just looking at ManDee and I were talking about how we highlighted so many things in the book. we’ve highlighted the entire book. But they talked about how the drama triangle is so common that people accept it just as things are. That’s just the way it is. And I know when I think about my life, like Yeah,
ManDee Nogle
yes, indeed. Indeed.
Heather Clark
And and I think I became clear about the drama triangle when I had committed to cutting the word should out of my vocabulary.
ManDee Nogle
Yes, yeah.
Heather Clark
Cuz when you do that, you got to get real clear. Well, what do I really want here? Because it’s really easy to say, Well, you know, you should do this or you should do that, or I should do this or I ought to or like, all that obligation energy. And if you’re really trying to obligate somebody, that’s fine, but be clear about it. Exactly. Like, Oh, well, what I really mean is, it’s probably in my best interest to do this, you know, versus I have to
ManDee Nogle
or that somehow I’m a bad person because I’m not, or Yeah,
Heather Clark
yeah. And then when you cut should out of your vocabulary you come face to face with? Well, I’m trying to obligate people for a lot of crap. This is. Yeah, that sounds like fun. How about if we not do that? Well, what do I really want here? And then you got to really start getting clear. Well, what do I want? And then at least for me, the next step was then asking for it. And it was after I did that I learned about oh, this is the drama triangle. This is all the drama triangle thing. So it was a very helpful lens.
ManDee Nogle
Well, and, and oh, so much to riff on with everything you just said there. The first thing that comes to mind is, and they’re pretty clear about this at the beginning, is that all players on the drama triangle, whether it’s the hero or the villain, or whatever,
ManDee Nogle
they’re all vying for the victim role. And so that’s truly what everyone wants to get. And when you read that, and it’s a little confrontive, because you want to say, Well, I like you said, I’m not a victim. I don’t want to be the victim. But as they explain these dynamics, it’s like, oh, this behavior then allows me to turn the table And, quote, become the victim. And in the example where you turned it on to me you had said to me, you know, as you as you’re telling me this, it sounds to me like you’re playing the rescuer Well, that’s confrontive to me because I like to think that I’m more enlightened than that.
ManDee Nogle
So I go and I read this and they do this are talking about the rescuer. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess I am dang it. Right.
ManDee Nogle
Just what you were saying about like the obligation energy, well, here, I want to do something for you, but look how nice I am. Look what I’m doing for you. Not even realizing that then obligates somebody else to do something back for you. And I wasn’t even conscious. That number one that I was doing that or that Number two, especially as a female, that is behavior that was modeled for me, as a child by my parents, my teachers, and even as an adult, you know, you go to organizations run, you know, mostly by women and that is a lot of times how women operate. And it is because as you said, we are taught not to ask for what we need, that somehow we’re being unladylike, or we’re being pushy, or we’re basically we’re just not, we’re not doing what we’re supposed to be doing by saying I need this well,
Heather Clark
and they’re like, it’s not okay to have needs and how dare you have requirements and and the thing I thought was really interesting is they actually pointed out in the book something that I know that you and I have talked about how healthcare is filled with people on the triangle, trying to be rescuers, making other people villains and playing the victim. It’s like, yeah, exhausting.
ManDee Nogle
It is. And it’s so insidious into our culture, that when you stop doing it, it just, it’s almost like everything just goes, wow, we don’t, we don’t know what to do here. So that’s not playing. And, you know, I talk about this a lot, you know, in one on one conversations, but even you know, professionally, I’ll talk about this topic. I’m a real big fan of Michael Brown’s work, the presence process and the presence processes is an experiential activity. He teaches you how to do it through this book that you do on your own. And the whole point is to remove yourself from drama, remove yourself from drama, remove yourself from the story. So I was doing a lot of this from an experiential way. I’m not going to engage when people are trying to behave in this way, or I’m not going to engage. When I get triggered, I’m going to always come back to self, sit with my feelings, integrate my emotions, and then I can come back out and interact with people when I’m in a better frame of mind. But what I found, when I would do those things, people didn’t know what to do with me, because they had never interacted with somebody who had done that before. And I hadn’t really interacted with people who did that before. So it was very new and scary, weird territory.
ManDee Nogle
But because Michael Browns work is experiential, it’s very, almost you as I would say, right brained, that we’re not going to give a story to this. We’re not going to give language to this experience. We’re just going to have the experience and there’s a reason for him doing that. But at the end, though, you don’t really have language and there’s so much there’s there’s a lot of importance in naming. Naming. What is No, we don’t want to get into story. We don’t want to get into drama. But we do need to identify what is happening to us. And we need to identify the situation because we need to identify the problem because the only way to solve the problem is to name it and identify it. To me, the drama triangle really helped me give language to the experience of no longer engaging in the social construct, where we just keep triggering each other. We just keep making each other villains and we keep being victims. And so having this framework was so exciting and helpful for that.
Heather Clark
I agree with all of that. But yeah, I really, at least from my interesting point of view, if you’ve got some language around something, so in my mind that is not necessarily just words, but that is a structure from which to relate to something It helps you understand it. And if it works for you, that’s great. You can create those structures more easily once you understand them, or if it’s a structure for something that doesn’t work for you, okay, I, I see the warning signs. I don’t need to get in the middle of this big, gigantic upheaval and have this big problem. You know, this has all the markers of a big, big issue later. So, yeah.
Heather Clark
Like she can just opt out immediately.
ManDee Nogle
Exactly. Well, and the other thing that I got out of this book, too, was realizing where I was also being the villain, where I was the persecutor, or however you want to label that. And that’s really hard because not none of us wants to be the villain, even people that we project out into our world who is a villain in their mind, they’re the hero. They are doing the thing they think should be done to save their group or You know, whatever. None of us embrace that label of villain. But reading this, it was really easy for me to see how I could flip from the rescuer into the person that was through the shoulding through the obligation that I was putting my stuff onto other people making them wrong. And then I become the villain, and then I can collapse into victim at the end. That was really interesting to see also.
Heather Clark
Well, it’s really helpful that you’re able to at least entertain it. Because I know, at the beginning of all of this for me at the beginning of the whole journey, I’m like, I’m not a villain. Done. Right. Right, done, there’s no need to examine that. That doesn’t apply. But then you’re like, Alright, well, what if I am the villain? Like, okay, well, that’s, that feels horrible. Let me Sit with that. All right, what about this and it gives you a way to move through it. Because chances are a response like, well, that’s not me done. That’s like a triggered response. And now that I know more, I’m like, oh, that tells me this is exactly where it is. Right?
ManDee Nogle
Where it’s uncomfortable is where we need to go. Exactly.
Heather Clark
The way out is through.
ManDee Nogle
Indeed,
Heather Clark
but but one of the, like, there’s more than there’s a bunch of that I like about the structure, but about the structure. It’s simply a lens to view things through. And yes, not, you’re on the drama triangle and you’re wrong. No, right. No, it’s it’s like I remember I gave was giving a presentation and this came up in the QA. And it’s like, there’s nothing inherently wrong with playing the victim role. We probably can’t hang out, that doesn’t work for me. doesn’t mean you’re wrong. And the looks on everybody’s faces like nobody had sliced it up for them like that, like, if that’s what you’re choosing, that’s what you’re choosing. And if your life is working beautifully for you, then– may the force be with you. But if t’s not. Here’s a framework to play with.
ManDee Nogle
Yes. Well, and what I like to about when we really start getting into all of this kind of work is just having consciousness of what we’re doing. And then at some point, also having consciousness of our intent. When I see some of the places where I do the rescuer behavior. My intent is not to tell somebody that they don’t have agency or that they’re too stupid to figure this out themselves. Or whatever some of it has to do with my impatience. Let’s get this, you know, train moving.
ManDee Nogle
That’s a me issue. That’s not a them issue, that’s a me issue. Some of it is
ManDee Nogle
I do I want things to be better for them. There are people I care about or that I love, and I have a very hard time watching them suffer. I have a hard time watching them as the victim, I want to help. And so and because we’re taught that helping is good, you know that we need to help people. It’s easy to jump into that. So figuring out what is my intent here and sometimes, sometimes my intent is I am super excited about this. I would like to have other people join me on this train of super excitement about this cool thing. Let’s go everybody. And I don’t you know, maybe realize that maybe some of like, that’s super cool. For you, I don’t want to get on the train, please don’t drag me on there. You know, or whatever. And so honoring our intent, I think is important too, that my intent is not to harm. But I have my own stuff and I and I need to be responsible for my own stuff and to allow other people to say thank you, but no thank you and to not become offended by it or upset or hurt or rejected.
Heather Clark
Yeah. And, and when the intent is not to harm. Sometimes that means then don’t help. Because exactly helping again, this is, this is neither. I’m sure if you’ve listened to any of the episodes on the show. This is not about right and wrong. Nothing’s about right and wrong message. Right. Right. sometimes helpful isn’t helpful. Sometimes helpful is enabling and sometimes helpful, is super helpful. Like that’s exactly what’s required to truly Support somebody. Yeah. Learning to discern the differences. Mm hmm. Go on.
ManDee Nogle
Well, I was just what I’m sorry, I didn’t want to, you know, cut cut you off or anything like that. What I thought was really interesting is not only do I to keep myself off the drama triangle need to start asking directly for what I need. And being okay if people say no. But also, I have to ask people what they need. And it’s funny, I was talking to someone yesterday, and they had called and they were getting ready to sell and I knew already I know this person very well. Okay, I’ll tell you, I’m related to this person. I know, them very very well. I already knew where we were going. I knew even without being told the story. I knew what was going to be asked to me. And I was just ready to get there. And so I started to jump in and then I went Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hey.
ManDee Nogle
I’m trying something new. And they went, Oh, okay. And I said, so I’m going to ask you, what do you need from me from this conversation? And it was funny. They said, Oh, um, oh, oh, well, I just need this. Cool. I was gonna give that to you anyway, but now that you’ve given me permission, yeah. And then the conversation went forward, and it was really great conversation, but it was fun to stop and ask to make sure we were on the same train. And that was cool. And it was cool that they were able because they know me well enough to go. Okay. Yeah, we’re gonna do some weird let’s just humor her.
ManDee Nogle
But it worked out.
Heather Clark
Yeah, but 99.9 times out of 100 your new something weird is usually truly wonderful for people. I love the blame shift and I love the disruption of the status quo by using the phrase, I’m trying something new. That’s like announcing to the planet. This is gonna be different. I. Yeah. And then you don’t have to say out loud. You know, normally we play this little game and I just wait for you to get done target like you don’t have to do. Like I’m trying something new. What do you need
ManDee Nogle
and what’s cool is it allows them to go. Okay, we’ll try something new. Yeah, wait, that was actually helpful. Or that railroad me
Heather Clark
or not, they can say, Well, what I need is the dance that we normally do. And then you can choose if you want to play that or not like, oh, not today, or Okay, that sounds great. I know.
ManDee Nogle
Right? Well, I’m gonna be honest. See, see I grew up in a little town.
ManDee Nogle
And the drama triangle is very much a part of our culture. I
Heather Clark
love it
ManDee Nogle
Sometimes, I do want to be part of the drama triangle because I just want to see where this goes. Tell me your story. Tell me who the villain is, you know.
ManDee Nogle
But it’s the being conscious. I know I’m doing it.
Heather Clark
Like, I just want to see where this goes. that’s hilarious. is interesting.
ManDee Nogle
That can be okay. Because it’s it’s conscious. And when and when it’s conscious, we can go Okay, I got I got what I needed out of that. Thank you. I hope you got what you needed. And disperse. Yeah, yeah.
Heather Clark
Good for entertainment. If nothing else,
ManDee Nogle
nothing else.
ManDee Nogle
I also, you know, as long as I’ve done this type of work, one of the things for a long time is that everything got so serious. So, so serious and we couldn’t laugh and I couldn’t, you know, make fun of things. And I like to make fun of things, things are funny. And at the time, that was important, because I needed to get some structures down, I was changing paradigms. I needed to take it seriously and, and really focus and be serious about it. But this stuff is funny, humans are funny. And we wouldn’t have humor. And we wouldn’t have all of this ability to see the absurdity in our lives and our thinking and our behaviors if there wasn’t a purpose for it, and so I think sometimes embracing some of this and having a good chuckle at ourselves at the situation, I think is healthy and I enjoy it. So I like to, you know, again, it’s all about consciousness. intent. Do you know what you’re doing? Yeah. And why?
Heather Clark
Yeah. And just because it’s serious doesn’t mean it’s not fun.
ManDee Nogle
Exactly.
ManDee Nogle
So, another I would I like to talk more about, like, the the persecutor or the villain role. Yeah. Because I think it’s easier for us to embrace things like the rescuer role because we’re at least trying to be good, you know, in our story.
Heather Clark
Well, yeah, and that’s the issue. We’re trying to be good trying to feel valuable. Trying to do all these things when really The secret is, the big benefit that we get is now we don’t have to deal with our own garbage. Again, yeah, it’s not wrong. Because if if I know that sometimes when I I’m in a really down state like, Okay, well, maybe I don’t want to rescue anybody. But could I at least help somebody? And then with some intention and consciousness around it, I think it works well for everybody. But I agree. I think it’s easier to relate to the Hero role because yay, yay, us.
ManDee Nogle
Yes, exactly. But at our society supports it.
Heather Clark
But, um, so tell me about do you have people in your life that are? Do you believe they’re intentionally playing the villain role or what tell us? What’s your experience of the persecutor?
ManDee Nogle
I, you know, I have had it’s, of course, it’s always easier to see the person outside of yourself.
Heather Clark
Right?!
ManDee Nogle
So, we’ll start there, because I’m probably articulate it better. I have worked with people or I have been in social settings with people that to me seemed like that. They truly were embracing the villain role, because they would do things and you and everyone later will be like–did you see that? How dare they, you know, and, and I easily, you know, especially when I was younger, easily jumped on that train to well, they are they are horrible, they’re just trying to destroy this organization. They are just trying to destroy these friendships or you know, whatever we thought they were trying to do. And as an older person, see, seeing some of these types of behaviors and really, really watching it and picking it apart. It’s been easier to see.
ManDee Nogle
Okay, there definitely is a game going on here. There’s a game of there are behaviors that I believe are unconscious that some people engage in that poke at or trigger the other people around them. And so they push the buttons of the people around them most likely unconsciously. Those people react. How dare you? They do something that then the villain can go. Well, did you see how mean she was to me? Did you hear what he said?
ManDee Nogle
and flip, boom, we’re in victim.
ManDee Nogle
And it’s so interesting to watch it because it’s all unconscious. Nobody knows that that’s what’s happening.
ManDee Nogle
And then you take it to yourself and you’re like, Okay, now where am I doing that? Oh, uh huh. Yep. Yeah, I can see some behaviors
ManDee Nogle
detect, I detect that it would be really really fun to poke this little button here on this person and see what they do. I know that they find this really irritating. Oh, and now they’re yelling at me But well, that’s unladylike.
Heather Clark
Or unprofessional, or whatever. Yeah. Yes.
ManDee Nogle
Not very enlightened, I would say.
Heather Clark
And that’s, as I see it. That’s one of the advantages, if you will, if you accept the premise that there’s some advantage to being on this drama triangle and playing this game. Then one advantage of being the persecutor is, you know, you can be kind of a jerk until somebody says something that absolves you of responsibility for your own actions.
ManDee Nogle
Fan self, fan self. Yes, exactly. That’s exactly,
Heather Clark
yeah, yeah, the well, and I can just think of multiple healthcare scenarios that I’m trying to scroll through what’s appropriate to share. You know, but basically dreaming up some problem, blaming someone else for it, and then pushing them to the point where they say something maybe that you can construe as a problem, and you can complain about it. And you get what you want. You don’t have to do your own work. You don’t have to modify your own behavior. You don’t even have to be halfway decent at your job. You just have to bitch enough that you get your way.
ManDee Nogle
Exactly.
Heather Clark
And wonder why it’s exhausting, right. Yeah.
ManDee Nogle
And then and then it allows the other people to play the victim and I could just set this up, it just sets it up. So Whoever role the people are the most comfortable in, you know, and then they after they’ve blown up, and they’ve said something they wish they hadn’t said or something that wasn’t maybe totally appropriate. Then after the blow up is over, they can come back and go, Oh, gosh, now I’m a horrible person. Look, I behaved in a way I normally don’t or that I don’t condone. And now there’s more. They it’s almost like they shame themselves and they become the victim in their own mind. Like, I mean, there’s just, there’s never peace.
Heather Clark
Right? There’s never peace with any of this. And yet, this is how I suppose there are people in society that haven’t been trained up from birth in this but I feel like most of us have been, most of us are just like, what this is just how the world works, but it isn’t. And I’m real curious to hear your take on the role of trauma and all of this.
ManDee Nogle
Well, okay, so that’s what I’m love so much about this book is that they dove right in, like, we aren’t even gonna ask questions of if trauma is part of part of it. It is. Yes, trauma is part of it and how. And so what, what the authors were talking about in the book was that when we are little Oh, and let me back up for just a second because the word trauma a lot of times I think when we say the word trauma, a lot of our brains turn off because we think of either some horrible over the top event that happened, or somebody who has been a victim of, you know, years and years of bullying or abuse or something. And what I like to talk about with trauma is everybody has it to some degree or another. It doesn’t mean your parents were bad. It doesn’t mean that any was bad, anyone was bad. It just means Welcome to Earth. You will be assigned things that are unpleasant.
ManDee Nogle
part of the package of coming here.
ManDee Nogle
And I think, you know, we want to go into the woo a little bit. It’s like, you know, one could argue, or at least play with the idea that this is this is part of one of the things that, that this part of the setup, it’s part of the game. It’s part of like, can we figure out how to take this and then do something with it, that that that is in our worlds productive or functional or transformative or however, I don’t want people to get turned off by this, this term of trauma. So trauma, I think, in this context, we’re just talking about you didn’t get needs met. Again, not because anyone was necessarily bad. Some of us people were bad. But not everyone was sometimes it was just circumstances if your parents had to work three or four jobs to put food on the table. They were not bad parents, by not being there all the time they were ensuring your survival. So we want to honor that. But at the same time as a young, young young child with very little language, if you are hungry, or you’re tired or cold or need your diaper changed, and nobody is there to do that, that is still traumatic to you. So that was that’s the first thing I wanted to kind of go over. But going back into the trauma piece, what they’re talking about is that we learned from a very early age, not to explicitly express our needs. Now, some people may be in families that they learned that and God bless y’all. Um, yay.
ManDee Nogle
Maybe one of these? Yeah, one of these days I’ll choose a life like that. Those parents I don’t know. We’ll see.
ManDee Nogle
This time around. I had a different experience. So So you don’t get these, you don’t get your needs met. And then you have an adversive you get an adverse reaction from your caregivers when you do ask for your needs. And so they gave examples of you or made fun of for asking for what you needed, or ridiculed or shamed. Or you were told, Hey, Mom has a lot on her plate, quit asking her for stuff, or daddy’s really tired. Let’s leave him alone. And so you learned needs don’t go away just because we don’t express them. We just learn other ways to get our needs met. I’ve heard the term it comes out sideways. And I really like that term, that some way that still gets the need met, but maybe isn’t as functional. So we learn to sneak around. We learn to manipulate others, we learn all of these different behaviors. And so then that becomes ingrained in our culture and if our parents learned the same stuff from their parents, And so on and so forth, and everyone around us, our friends are doing it. It is it becomes culture. And it’s a culture of trauma, in a sense, and we can even take it to bigger social justice types of issues of groups of people do not get their needs met, and are hurt for trying to get their needs met. And so you’re gonna, you’re gonna see some different experiences there too. So I think trauma definitely plays a piece of this. For sure.
Heather Clark
Yeah, and for me, it was woven through the whole thing because really, trauma is kind of woven through everything. unfortunate. And yeah, trauma, one of the definitions of trauma because I love yours. And another one is, it’s a stress that exceeds your ability to cope.
ManDee Nogle
Yes, love that.
Heather Clark
So you know, if you’re Well, let’s say 47 and you lose your teddy bear, you go, that is inconvenient. You know, if you’re three and you lose your teddy bear, that is a major life issue. That’s a big problem. So wherever you are in the perspective, so I think it’s woven through everything. And I’m glad you brought it up, because I think most of the structures of society are drama, triangle structures. And it’s a matter of sometimes it’s effective to play the game of drama triangle. It’s effective to do that sometimes, and sometimes it isn’t, but it’s very difficult to, I guess, win.
Heather Clark
Yes, it’s a game where no winners, yes.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah. Because as soon as you’ve sideways, gotten your needs met, another problem has shown up that now needs to be addressed and it’s just and we have to Keep addressing all of these different issues. You know, I think about, you know, there’s, at the time of this recording, there was a lot of political turmoil going on in the world. I won’t allude to specifics, but there is. And I think about the people who are having to really play that game out on the world stage. And then on, on some ways they win– they do get what they want, or they get what they say they want, or they get what their group says they want. And in some ways they lose because now the other side is going to go Oh, yeah, well, we’re going to get our needs met this. And so then another confrontation is already set up before almost even the first one ends.
ManDee Nogle
And Michael Brown has in one of his books, he talks about how do you achieve peace? How do you achieve peace and it is you remove the humans
Heather Clark
became Michael Brown and I don’t agree on a lot, I don’t think.
ManDee Nogle
But I, what I love about the of the whole point is, is that peace exists already. It is here we are in the midst of peace right now. It is our, our behaviors, our unintegrated stuff, our trauma patterns, that disrupts peace. And so his point is, is that peace is always there. It’s just do we choose to access it or not? And what I thought was really great about this trauma triangle and understanding it and knowing how to get on and off of it is that the humans can still be there, and there’ll be peace, but the peace occurs by making different choices that we aren’t used to making.
Heather Clark
Yeah, and not continually distracting ourselves. Yeah, because that’s the drama triangle really provides an excellent distraction that can keep you from truly getting down to what makes you unshakable. And it’s it just keeps you off center, but you get used to it. So it feels very normal to be off center now, so that when you when the chaos and the drama and the problems evaporate out of your life, that’s actually especially when people recover from burnout. Like when they get to the point where they’re like, oh, there’s nothing I’m fighting against. There’s nothing I’m working against. I have calm now. Yeah. And I’m like, Okay, this is this is a time when we want to consolidate this and get used to this.
ManDee Nogle
Right? Because
Heather Clark
the immediate temptation is what cuz you got to replace it with something otherwise, chaos will flow back in.
ManDee Nogle
Exactly.
Heather Clark
Like let’s just nail this down and make this your solid foundation. And how can we do that for you? Instead of Okay, well, that week was great. So anyway, back to Chaos and drama.
ManDee Nogle
Well, and here I would like to pull up. So in the video that you had made, where you were talking about the drama triangle, you offered another solution, you called it the freedom triangle. And what I love about this is it addresses this exact vacuum that you’re talking about, because it’s one thing to calm everything down. But if we don’t have anything to replace it with, we go back to what’s familiar, because that’s, that’s human nature. So would you like to tell us more about your thoughts on the freedom triangle and kind of flipping the script a little bit?
Heather Clark
Sure that I don’t know why it never occurred to me that we would do that. That seems so obvious now that we’ve talked about it. that ever happened to you where you’re like, Oh, I could have been ready to go on that.
ManDee Nogle
So we’re late. You’re leading right into it. I was like, let’s do this. Because you’re right. You wanna You got it. Can’t have a vacuum?
Heather Clark
No, well, and it, I guess it could work if you just stopped participating in the drama triangle. But for most humans, that’s going to feel so weird that you’re going to probably judge it as wrong. And let me jump back in. Like, this is so uncomfortable. Instead of Okay, now I am actively doing something else. So let’s say somebody shows up in your life as a villain. And it’s upsetting because you know how I roll I’m like, Oh, I find I am very triggered by that I am going to go process right? Because if you spot it, you got like, well, so and so is just, you know, weak or so and so it’s just not getting it done. Oh, dang it. Now that means that somewhere I think I am weak or I’m not getting it done. All right, let me say with this. So seeing the villain as a teacher like Seeing the villain as whatever is happening with this persecutor or villain, whatever they’re persecuting you for whatever your problem with them is, is pointing to that piece of yourself that you haven’t acknowledged it’s the shadow you haven’t integrated. It’s that part of you that you’ve split off and made wrong. Yeah. So this is part of being present with what is it’s part of allowing it’s part of bringing everything back on board.
Heather Clark
Which is really easy to talk about. And then 123 you’re done. Yeah. Sometimes, and sometimes you’re like, oh, and here we go again. I thought we were done with that. We are not.
ManDee Nogle
Yep.
Heather Clark
And then you can let that just let it move you forward. It doesn’t mean that you’re not upset. It doesn’t mean that you’re Like, oh, I noticed I’m blaming somebody. Okay, interesting. Full stop. What is it about this? Not necessarily Why am I blaming them? But what is it about what’s going on that I have a problem with? And then a lot of times well, so and so needs to do acts like oh needs to crap, that’s obligation. Okay. What’s my obligation? What do I really want here? Or, or even noticing? Okay. I find that I want to like just jump in and fix it. Okay, that’s hero slash rescuer behavior. Again, not wrong, but probably not fully supporting the sovereignty of this other person.
ManDee Nogle
Yes, indeed.
Heather Clark
Like, what if I could serve as a support? What if I could be of service so let’s Let me ask what would support you here? I don’t know. Great. Would you like to spend a few minutes drilling down to see what might support? No, I don’t really want to great or Yes, absolutely cool. And then just being fine with whatever the answer is. Yeah. And then the victim just having some compassion for yourself. Yes. And then just realizing, Okay, wait a minute. I am the powerful creator of my own experience. That’s like, this is one of my first principles. I am the powerful creator of my own experience. And, you know, you might get triggered by hearing that sometimes that’s very triggering, because then it immediately jumps to why in the hell what I have created this experience. Like, Oh, my God, why would I have done that? And I’ll go into that in just a second if you like. But yes, it’s not always helpful. What I love the question why And sometimes when, when you try and follow the question why that creates resistance? Because you’re using it as your rationale. Like it’s just keeping you spinning, like, okay, and that’s fine. Because there’s benefits to spinning like, you don’t have to stop and deal with any of this really uncomfortable stuff. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, that benefit does not always outweigh the problems. So just be with Okay, I’m a victim, great. Like, wait a minute, that’s not true. Because as I say it out loud, right? That feels very heavy. Okay. So that’s not true for me. I am not a victim, but I feel like a victim. Okay, that’s true. And then you just kind of move through it.
ManDee Nogle
So love that “I feel like” is so different than “I am.”
Heather Clark
Mm hmm. And we’ve Go ahead. No, it’s just it’s what’s actually true.
ManDee Nogle
It’s when it’s actually true.
Heather Clark
Yeah. Because when you can deal with what’s actually true, that’s part of being unshakable. Now you’re not dealing with all the extraneous crap, you’re through the fluff. You’re like, oh, we’re down to, it gets real simple, real simple. Which, yeah, bears very little relationship to easy, but it’s simple.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah, it’s straightforward. And there’s, like you said, it doesn’t get, you know, the hardest part of the work is, is resistance. because like you said, there’s so many ways to distract. There’s so many ways to resist. There’s so many reasons why we want to we resist things because they’re uncomfortable. We don’t want to look at parts of ourselves, that maybe we don’t like, or sometimes I think parts of ourselves that we are afraid is true. That isn’t like I’m afraid that I’m selfish. You know, my I don’t know, maybe sometimes I am. But sometimes is it it’s a behavior, is it a reaction is it you know, it’s not who I am. It is something else.
Heather Clark
And even if you changed what and here’s something else to try and even if that’s true, let’s step into an alternate reality where that is true that you’re selfish. Why is that bad? Exactly? Like, what does that make you less worthy? And that’s the problem, does it? You know, yeah, bad person. Like what? And if you’re able to follow why these things are a problem. Then you can get down to Okay, well, here’s what’s really going on. Here’s my actual true lived values. Like that’s huge. Now I have a strong solid foundation to move from. Like cuz let’s just pretend okay. The reason why it would be bad to be selfish is because then you would be, I don’t know. Just fill in the blank here. What would that mean? Oh,
ManDee Nogle
uncaring about uncaring about other people.
Heather Clark
Beautiful. So that means I’m uncaring about other people. And why is that bad?
ManDee Nogle
Well, because then I don’t acknowledge their thoughts and feelings. I hurt them
Heather Clark
then you hurt people. Okay. So that feels like if that isn’t a bedrock that’s close, so there’s a value there to not hurt people.
ManDee Nogle
Exactly. Yeah.
Heather Clark
So now. Now a person’s like, Okay, well, that’s what’s really going on. Because what you’ll discover is you’ll get down to there’ll be three or four value type things that will pop up in your life and like, Okay, this stuff keeps popping up. This must be my deal. My deal. Is this. Great. Now, I can Now doing all of that work is way faster. Now I’ve got a real short checklist, okay? So my deal is I don’t want to hurt people, or my deal as being important, or my deal is like, whatever it is, is let me check those off the checklist first. Okay, great. And then you can flip it into your superpower once you can, like truly own things about you. You can flip it into a superpower.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah.
Heather Clark
So. So people like me going go from being bossy. To I’m a leader
ManDee Nogle
Yeah
Heather Clark
And then when I am stressed or haven’t had enough sleep or feel like I don’t have enough authority, then things can come out sideways. If I’m not actively trying to take leadership which is different than authority. Then I noticed sometimes, oh, I get real directive about what we need to do because this isn’t moving fast enough. Okay. That’s the shadow side, and then Oh no, I’m gonna … Oh, no at this conference, I don’t want to go off site to get an Uber to this bar to go for cocktails. Now I’m just gonna stay here. And then the rest of the group stays here. And the one person that wanted to go is mad like, Well, okay, enjoy. I’m — this is what I’m doing. Exactly.
ManDee Nogle
And that’s the thing is that you can feel confident in your choices that are functional for you. And if people want to join you in those choices, they have the freedom to do so. If they do not, they have the freedom to not end. There’s no judgement. There’s, there’s no nothing. It’s just everyone is making the choice that’s the best for them.
Heather Clark
Yeah, and there’s not. I’m gonna stay here and I really want you guys to stay here because I don’t want to go. No, like I’m staying is what works for me. Yeah. Or going with what works for me. Enjoy. I’m sure it’ll be fun
ManDee Nogle
And to me, that’s the You know, that’s those things are the benefits of doing this, this type of stuff of looking at things like trauma theory or drama triangles or you know, emotional integration or, you know, some of these other pieces is that, yes, you are correct. It is not easy. In fact, it’s very, very challenging, especially in the beginning. But it does make things more simple because you get to the truth. And to me, the ultimate gift is that you get the truth. Because if you have the truth, and you are authentic, and you are in a place where you feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable with people because you’re that confident in yourself, life seems to move more smoothly. Because you’re in that place. Yeah. And it doesn’t mean it’s perfect. It doesn’t mean you always get what you want. or all of that, that kind of exterior stuff that the inner, the day to day How do I feel? How are my reactions? How are my relationships? And when the end when things go off center, it’s easier to figure out how to get it back on. The To me that is is invaluable.
Heather Clark
Oh yeah, once you’ve got your foundation hammered into place, you’re only dealing with what’s so what’s true for you, then it gets really easy to just cut through all the garbage. Yes, like, Oh, I see that my temptation is to become focused on this peripheral issue. Okay. Interesting. So that means I’m resisting something for me personally. Oh, that means I’m resisting something. What is it? Oh, it’s this thing over here. Yeah, okay. Well, maybe, maybe I will just shelve that for the moment. It’s like a conscious. Okay. Part of me working through this issue. Is is just consciously not doing it at the moment Yeah, sweeping it away. I’m not whatever. Yeah.
ManDee Nogle
I love what you said the other day.
ManDee Nogle
I am working on it. Yeah. And I don’t know if you remember, remember what your example was, is that I am working on it does not always mean I’m working on it right this second and at all times until it’s done. It means that this is something that’s in the hopper. In this moment, though, I am actually going to go get dinner ready. I am not actively working on it. But I know because I’m working on it, that when dinner is done, and the time is right, I come back to it. And I loved that too. Because, again, it took obligation away. It just said, we acknowledge it, and we’re going to deal with it as appropriate. There’s no timeframe, there’s no timeline, just says,
Heather Clark
honors a person’s ebb and flow of energy. Yeah, because sometimes you’re gonna have a person will have lots of bandwidth, lots of energy. Well, I’m ready to do this and other times Wow. I just …Whew, I’m a no today.
ManDee Nogle
I see that that is hanging out there. And that’s just gonna have to hang out there for a while I acknowledge you. But I’ve got to go back inside.
Heather Clark
And it’s kind of like, um, so the way I look at it to be working on something. It’s kind of like I’m reading a book. Like maybe at this very second. I’m not reading a book. Like, for instance, at this very second. We’re doing a podcast, but I have I have two books going. I kind of read regularly and get back to and if a lot of time passes, and I haven’t gone back to the book well I’ve just got to acknowledge, I guess I’m no longer reading that book. Right. But generally, yeah, I just I revisit it. And we just moved through it. So I don’t know sometimes that’s a helpful framework. Yeah. I like it takes the pressure off. off.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah. And that’s the thing too, is I think we put so much pressure on ourselves in this culture. Because Because everything here is about production being productive and productivity equals worth. And, you know, so on and so forth, that we really have absorbed that as a measure of whether we should even have the right to exist or not. And so, part of this dismantling, is taking pressure off and acknowledging that it is okay to do things when it is the time and the place to do it. And for some of us, it’s it’s not time or we got to come back and forth with it. And some of us just want to dig in into it and none of it’s wrong. It’s all good.
Heather Clark
Just bookmark it. That’s fine. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. So as you know, ManDee, but I don’t think the listeners know there. There’s A family of feral kittens in our backyard.
ManDee Nogle
I do know about the feral kittens.
Heather Clark
And here, oh gosh, a few to several weeks now. Mom showed up at the back door with three very cute kittens in tow. And it was clear to me that she required assistance. And my first reaction was to swoop in as the rescuer. Yeah, and I was like, Oh, can we not do that here? Yeah, like weird. What do I really want out of this? And what I decided was, I just believe living creatures have a right to food. Water. Yeah, we’re just gonna see how this goes. And then as we were talking about the other day that what I think is the dad cat has coming in. I don’t know if he’s teaching them to hunt or not. You know, he’s got family ties or he’s trying to create a gang. I don’t know what’s really good. I don’t know about the socio political life of kittens. But he moved him to the neighbor’s yard. And I was like, Hey, I found myself viewing him as the villain.
ManDee Nogle
Oh,
Heather Clark
- And I got sucked into this. I was quite a ways in before I realized, oh my god, I’m viewing him as the villain. And I am also the victim. I’m trying to swoop in and be the hero to these kittens.
Heather Clark
Like, oh, okay, it truly is everywhere.
ManDee Nogle
Yes.
ManDee Nogle
Like, all right. That is so funny. I didn’t realize that that had happened with the dad cat. Ah,
ManDee Nogle
but Yeah, come on. Sorry.
Heather Clark
I was just gonna say Oh, okay. I could do that. Know the drama triangle isn’t fun for me. And I just have a personal if I’m not going to walk the talk, I gotta shut up about it like, Well, I’m not going to shut up about the drama triangle. So let me–right? And once I was like, you know what if that’s their choice, I respect their autonomy and all that’s fine. And then they, they came back that evening they’re back in the backyard. So
ManDee Nogle
and it all works out. It all works out. Yeah, yeah. Well,
ManDee Nogle
I love that. That apparently it is it is a very ingrained part of our human psyche or anatomy or however you want to do it. We have to remember that our psyche is because of our anatomy. And when our anatomy changes, our psyche changes and that’s all connected. But that’s another conversation. But it is interesting that these dramas don’t spring from out of nowhere. We are wired or we least we have been taught in some way to engage this way because otherwise we wouldn’t do that with with cats. You know? And so, again and and one of the things that I really loved about the authors they talked about they said, you know, I’m um, is it Karpman? The drama triangle came from Steven Karpman, I think maybe you mentioned at the beginning and Karpman had done research on on how you know how prevalence or these types of ways of thinking. And what he found in his research was like 70 somewhat about close to 70% of the population has no idea that they have any like autonomy or responsibility or anything they think the world and life just happens to them. And they’re just kind of moving along and trying to dodge arrows and and you know, that sort of thing, but that there’s no autonomy Around 30% of the population understands that there are patterns, you have patterns from childhood events in their lives and if affect how they think about things and the choices they make and how those choices bring about different circumstances, but they don’t realize that there is that there are things they can do to change this, and then only about less than 1% understands that they can change this. And, and the author said,
ManDee Nogle
humans as a species cannot evolve until we move out of this drama triangle place because we just keep playing the same stories over and over and over. And we have no room for new stories and new ways. And you know, and the only way when we get they’re starting to have this awareness that again, we’re we it’s so ingrained in us we’re even doing it I’m with with those who are not part of our own species. And so that that is really interesting to me. But again, it just shows that we are not victims of things and we are not victims of our circumstance really just has to do with we continue to build our own awareness about ourselves and this type of thing and then do what we want to do to change it if we so choose to.
Heather Clark
Absolutely. And and certainly we’re not talking about it is possible to be the powerful creator of your own experience and be victimized.
ManDee Nogle
Yes. Like Yes, let me be clear about that. Yes,
Heather Clark
this is not neither ManDee nor I subscribe to the spiritual bypassing of well, you create your own reality, which is essentially like saying you brought that on yourself like right? No, that’s not really where we’re going here.
ManDee Nogle
No, you, you can be harmed by others. True; that is a real thing.
Heather Clark
Yes. Yeah. And the difference is okay, well, how do I want to respond to this? Yeah. And if I truly believed I was the powerful creator of my own experience, what would I choose here? Yeah. And it doesn’t mean that you’ll necessarily choose that. But just the question really brings you more power and helps you be just that little bit more unshakable just even asking it and entertaining it. Because sometimes, if I were truly the powerful creator of my own experience, pick up my purse and drive home, like I’m leaving this job. Right? But you know, and then you run through all the reasons why not? Well, I could do that. And today I choose to continue with what I’m doing so.
ManDee Nogle
Right. Well, and then the other thing is, is
ManDee Nogle
I find you know, working with with the brain and, and how trauma affects our brain and affects how we process information. You know, when you have trauma it changes you know different hormone production in your system to different chemical production in your system that actually changes how you perceive the world. And so when that happens and if you aren’t able to address that trauma and and release it, for lack of a better word, that you now have an alternative view of the world and you may not see things exactly as they are because they’re coming through this lens, this trauma lens, and by that you miss things you miss opportunities, because you they can be right in front of you and you don’t see them. And, and so sometimes we can get stuck in a situation where we are being victimized, and no, it is not our fault that we are being victimized. But unless we are able to stop and start to kind of examine things We missed the escape hatches, and we miss the ways of changing and slowly but surely maybe changing the entire structure.
Heather Clark
Agreed? Yeah, it definitely changes how it how you perceive the world and in ways that are invisible to you. Yeah. Not Oh, this is this is a trauma filter issue. Got it? It’s more like no, this is just how things are. What are these people talking about? Like it’s invisible to you.
ManDee Nogle
Right. Exactly. Yeah. So those and, and I love how when we start looking at things like this, it does it does truly empower us to like you have said throughout the program be unshakable.
Heather Clark
Yeah. And, and No, it isn’t a person’s job to help people around them transform. But that’s just I live For transformation, so I just relish every opportunity I was thinking about. So one of the things ManDee does is community theater. And she was able to do it for a while, and we went to one of her plays. And the lady at the door was very firmly ensconced in the drama triangle, and wasn’t. She was not expecting to have someone that did not play along with her in any way. She wanted to complain about things that basically she wanted to talk about other people and complain about other people without actually taking her issues to those people. Yes, she was mad about stuff, but she just wanted to bitch. And I’m like, I’m just trying to give you my ticket and get in the door like I don’t. And she, I was in the middle of a conversation she interrupted my conversation to complain about other people. About extraneous things
ManDee Nogle
People that you didn’t know, if I remember this correctly.
Heather Clark
Yes, yeah, people I didn’t know. And ManDee knows this. But if I have a thought, everybody can see it on my face. So I didn’t really say much, but it was real clear what I kind of thought of that. And I was like, um, that’s an interesting statement. And that’s all I said.
Heather Clark
And, and not like, Oh, look at me What a great job I’m doing. It’s just I think it’s an interesting example of how it changed the dance to somebody who was not expecting the dance to be changed. Yeah. And then she can do with that. whatever she wants to. I assume she made me the villain in her story. But I don’t care. That’s fine. And she came up to us later. She’s like, well, and I just wanted to touch base with you, I’m like… Okay. Cool. Like I don’t like understand why we’re talking
ManDee Nogle
Right.
Heather Clark
Yeah, yeah. But it was an opportunity for her that she could either take or not. But it wasn’t like, it wasn’t my job to provide it. But that’s just what works for me not getting sucked into this stuff. Yeah, at least it benefits clients. I’m not sure that that person ever, you know, did much with that, but that’s fine.
ManDee Nogle
But well and then and then the beauty of it is, is that you know, in the Woo circles we talked about life changed my vibration or you’re changing your vibration and that’s why your world has gotten shaken up and you know, things are falling away, you’ve lost your job, you know, your, your dog, lefty or whatever. and whatnot. But in my own world, what I found was that I, as I as I changed, yes, all of those things happen. I had a very bad year one year. Well, one could say was bad because all these extraneous things fell away, I lost some relationships, I lost a job, I lost all of this stuff. But actually what was happening is that those things were no longer in alignment anymore. They were falling away. And of course, there were some grief over that and some fear and anger and whatnot. But what moved into their place was so much better. So, so much better. And I had opportunities to learn different ways of operating in the world. And, and, you know, it was it was definitely very functional.
ManDee Nogle
And that seems very magical when you think about it, but if you want to parse it out, one way of looking at it is you or me, I was one in this particular example was I was changing how I was interacting with people. And the people around me were used to this old way of interacting and they were not ready to do something different. And so by not being ready to do so, Something different. Friendships fell away. romantic relationships fell away, jobs fell away. Because I could not continue to engage in those behaviors and stories. And they did not want to do anything different. It doesn’t make them wrong. It doesn’t make me better. It just means we are no longer in alignment. You know, and that’s how it moves away. And that’s what’s fun, too. Is that then, you know, I said something. I was talking to a friend of mine the other other day, we were talking about dating and whatnot. And I said something about not wanting to date. And the response was like, oh, what what?
ManDee Nogle
And I said, well, but let’s think about this. You know, talking about the drama triangle and talking about this stuff. I don’t want that in my environment. Most people haven’t. You know, there aren’t always Have this this type of information. I’m not interested in inviting someone into my world, just for romantic needs, when these other criteria are not met. And I said, You know, I am fortunate enough, I have, you know, somewhere between five and 10 friends that actually do understand this. They’re working on this in their own ways. We all have different philosophies about how to go about it, but that’s fine. But everyone’s doing it and we can have conversations about it. We can support each other as we move through these things. And, and no one’s doing the work for each other. But it’s like you have some assistance when you need it. Help me, help me see what I’m looking at, help me, you know, figure out where I’m going off the rails here. How fortunate knowing the statistics of how many people are able to do these things that I have up to 10 people in my life that understand this? I’ll take that. That’s awesome.
ManDee Nogle
Like that is when you think about lottery numbers like that how how fortunate I am but the but the fortune comes from being in alignment, this particular group of people, we’re all somewhat in alignment in that way. So cool stuff.
Heather Clark
I love it and I know that you’ve heard this before but in from my frame of reference, the example that you shared where there was a really bad year and all this stuff fell away in my frame of reference that to me is a symptom of your soul went and evolved on you. And now all the old stuff you had didn’t match anymore.
ManDee Nogle
I love that analogy that yes,
Heather Clark
and then but stuff that did match that you enjoyed more was then able to come to you when all of that cleared out. Now, sometimes knowing that can be helpful during these times when I you know Nothing works anymore. Everything’s falling away. Oh my god, this is horrible. Sometimes it’s helpful to be like, Okay, well, this is just my soul went and evolved, what is aligned will now be attracted to me. Yes. But that doesn’t. I don’t want to diminish the suck. Right? Like let’s not gloss over how? Yes of course there’s grief of course it feels horrible. And and sometimes that lens that framework of seeing it well okay, well this is a soul evolution thing just like I think currently what’s happening is the world went and evolved. And now all of these old structures that were not terribly functional before are now disintegrating. Yeah, so it’s similar.
ManDee Nogle
And it is it is painful. It’s painful to watch. It’s painful when you’re part of it. If for some reason though, you’re part of the system and I think we’re all part of At least one or two of those systems that are disintegrating. So we’re all having an experience of, wow, I don’t care for this.
Heather Clark
What Fresh Hell awaits me today?
ManDee Nogle
Yeah, well, when wasn’t.
ManDee Nogle
So so we all and we all get to do it at the same time.
ManDee Nogle
But, but yeah, it doesn’t diminish how painful it is. But at the same time, there is hope. And there is, I think a light at the end of the tunnel with this is that by clearing away these old non functional structures and non functional belief systems and paradigms, we have an opportunity for new things to come in and I don’t even think that we necessarily are going to have to, quote create new stuff in a vacuum. I think a lot of that stuff has already been created. It’s stuff that’s been people have been talking about for 20 plus years. There just hasn’t been the place to lay the foundation. And was knocking down the little buildings, the foundation for the new buildings can can be put into place. And that’s very exciting.
Heather Clark
I think so too. I think so too. Fantastic.
ManDee Nogle
Yeah.
Heather Clark
So do you have more you’d like to share about the drama triangle at this time?
ManDee Nogle
I do not. I feel complete at this time. This was very fun. I very much enjoyed this.
Heather Clark
Thank you. Me too. That’s why I was like, Oh, this is gonna be great. Thank you so much for this, ManDee.
ManDee Nogle
Well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me to do this and on such a wonderfully fun topic.
Heather Clark
Love it and yeah. Beautiful. Thanks so much.
ManDee Nogle
Thank you.
Heather Clark
Thank you so much for listening to Unshakable Being. You’ll find more information in the episode shownotes at unshakablebeing.com. Subscribe to the podcast and share with your friends. May you be unshakable, unstoppable, and vibrant again. Until next time.