Only doing What Turns You On with Jen Moff

What if you were only doing what turns you on (not just in the boudoir context, but beyond as well)? Join the fabulous Jen Moff and I as we explore what that really means, how your dishes and laundry will probably still get done and your bills still get paid, and how to get to the unshakable freedom on the other side.

Featured Guest

Jen Moff

Entertainer, Retreat Leader and World Traveler, and Spiritual Business Mentor

Jen Moff is the Queen of Purging, Playing and Perfecting. More specifically, she is a business mentor, retreat leader and world traveler, spiritual philosopher and artist serving burned-out women across the globe.

Her mission is to inspire women to shake shit up so they don’t look back at the end of their lives with regrets; wishing they spent more time happy and having fun.

How does Jen make this magic happen? Her unique ability to simplify complex ideas and generate creative strategic solutions can be found in her self-paced online courses, sold-out transformational retreats and VIP days, exclusive 1-1 mentorship, and right here on her Youtube Channel.

After years of working for small businesses, Jen left employee life to work and live on her own terms. She quickly and easily grew the brand to six figures with more self care, outsourcing, and time off while creating the most loyal fanbase possible.

Once described as a creative Tasmanian Devil, she is an absolute powerhouse.


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episode transcription

Heather Clark  00:02

Welcome to Unshakable Being: inspiration and practical tools for purpose led helpers, guides and leaders like you to shift out of stress, stop going in circles, and get what you want in your life, body and business. I am Dr. Heather Clark, and I’ll be your host.


Heather Clark  00:19

Hello, and welcome to the show. This week we have Jen Moff. She is the queen of purging, playing and perfecting. More specifically, she’s a business mentor, retreat leader and world traveler, spiritual philosopher and artist serving burned out women across the globe. Jen, I am so excited to have you here.


Jen Moff  00:41

Thank you so much, Heather. I’m looking forward to this as well.


Heather Clark  00:45

Me, too. Jen and I have talked a few times before. And we actually she was one of the people I interviewed for the get what you want summit last fall. And I’m just so excited to have you on because we just so many magical things open up.


Heather Clark  01:07

Where I would like to start is, we had talked a little bit before and one of the things that’s really up for a lot of people now is this: and it’s only doing what turns you on. I want to hear more about your perspective on this.


Jen Moff  01:27

So first of all, I don’t mean this just strictly like in the boudoir context, you know, people sometimes take things literally and yes, I mean that in that space of time, but I mean it every moment of every day, like another way you could you could phrase this would be only doing what lights you up or only doing the things that you feel strongly pulled towards, or you know what, whatever language, you know, needs to resonate with you for this to really sink in, by all means grab on to that.


Jen Moff  01:58

But what I mean by saying this, at its core, it’s about not compromising the things that you want in life, not neglecting the dreams, the desires, the pleasures, the pursuits that have been planted deep in your soul for you know, your lifetime, whether you’ve forgotten about them, and then revisited them, which is part of my story. Or it’s a new thing that all of a sudden was just presented to you and you’re like, Oh, cool. Sounds very fun, like, not making excuses for the things that you want to do you want to experience you want to take part in and following as Joseph Campbell would say, following your bliss.


Heather Clark  02:46

I love that.


Heather Clark  02:50

So some people that are listening to this are thinking to themselves, right. Okay. Okay, like sure. Uh huh. So anyway, what’s the deeper message? And then there other people listening to this going? These people are in Fantasyland. Like, that is not how the world works?


Jen Moff  03:13

Yeah. I know quite a few of those people. I don’t know if the people I know are listening. They might be but


Heather Clark  03:23

so I’m really interested in your take on that. How can you respond to someone that feels like yeah, that’s not how it works? Because I’m wondering if maybe it’s depends on where you’re at in your evolution? Or if simply focusing on No, I’m just going to do what lights me up. And that’s what facilitates your evolution.


Jen Moff  03:42

I think it’s a yes, and. Like you propose to, you know, interesting kind of points of view. And I think it’s both. And I would say it’s easy for me at various times in my life to be in that camp as well. That’s like, okay, john, that’s, that might be for you. But you’ve got this and you’ve got that going for you or, you know, whatever it may be, that I used to tell myself or say about other people.


Jen Moff  04:12

And it certainly can be a truth, it can be absolutely true for some people, because reality is subjective. What we have decided our attitudes towards things, our values, and what we believe those are the core pieces of the human puzzle. So when you just any of those things, it changes what your experience is like.


Jen Moff  04:36

So if I choose to believe that I can say no to something, and I will still be safe, I will still, you know, have nourishing relationships. I’ll still have a roof over my head and food on my table and not just those bare minimums, but I’ll have all the things that I would like and then some, then that’s a choice that I’m choosing In belief, that can be a springboard, like you said, so having to take that first step like, okay, I can’t see what’s next. I only have enough, you know, trust and faith and whatever else that I need to have to just try this next thing.


Jen Moff  05:15

And what that might look like tangibly is somebody presenting an opportunity to you that you feel like you should say yes to, but you don’t, you don’t really want to, if you’re honest with yourself, it’s not something that if everything was going your way, quote, unquote, that you would say yes to. And so it takes a certain amount of trust and belief in yourself.


Jen Moff  05:39

And what is possible to say no to that opportunity, or to that situation, and creating a, an energetic boundary around what it is that you stand for what it is that you desire, what it is that you want, or need, and have, and will not accept less than, and I can say, for an area in my own life that I had to do this in, like, completely in faith where I didn’t believe it was raising some of my rates in my business.


Jen Moff  06:08

When I was starting out, and saying no to clients that wanted to work with me, certainly the fear was, or the belief was, Jen, you can’t say no, to people, they, if they’re paying customers, and you can help them, why would you turn them away? Point blank, because I knew that maybe it wasn’t in there or my best interest to work together. Yes, the there could be a results, but at what cost?


Jen Moff  06:35

So it’s it’s really important to be willing to take that first step, and then continue to take those steps, as you said, you know, is it does it continue to elevate your evolution? Absolutely. Stretching beyond that comfort zone into the growth zone is a continual daily practice?


Heather Clark  07:00

What would you say to people who are like, you know, but vacuuming additions do not like me up.


Jen Moff  07:05

And I’ve heard that before.


Heather Clark  07:07

Right? I know, it’s a fairly common retort. That’s why I wanted to give you a chance to respond to it here formally.


Jen Moff  07:13

Thank you. That’s okay. First of all, it’s okay. If they don’t, they don’t have to. Beyond acknowledging that they don’t, and giving yourself permission to say, you know what, this is not stuff that I feel super excited to do. You can then make a choice to find alternative solutions, if there’s things in your life that you do not enjoy. And you can start to imagine having an alternative scenario to how those things would be accomplished and taking you out of the puzzle.


Jen Moff  07:54

Then, what harm does it do to start imagining what that looks like? Because any anything that we’ve ever created has to start in imagination, land, you know, whether it was air conditioning or electricity, we had to come up with some kind of picture in our mind. And once things beget, not beget, but once things become real. In the ether, it’s merely a matter of time before we can start putting a plan in place to bring that idea down into reality. So I don’t like doing dishes. I don’t like doing this, you know, housework.


Jen Moff  08:39

What would it be like to just once hire a housekeeper for an afternoon? That was the first thing I did. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I don’t want to do Oh, that’s good. You know, there was all sorts of discomfort. Jen, you don’t have the money for that. You don’t do that. You don’t need to do that. But how do I feel about people that do those things. And so it uncovers a lot of beliefs and projections about the kind of people that are allowed to have that and why we’re good if we, you know, slave away at something or toil away at something, even if we don’t want to do it.


Jen Moff  09:13

And so I started by just hiring somebody to come and clean my house before I was facilitating a retreat. And once that tiny bandaid had been ripped off, I was like, okay, that wasn’t that wasn’t completely unfathomable, I could do that again. And it also made me appreciate the work that I do when I empty the dishwasher or vacuum because I happen to hold myself to a little bit higher standard, then this cleaner dead.


Jen Moff  09:42

So I was like, You know what, I actually I don’t mind doing it because I get a little bit better quality of work. So it changed my opinion a little bit about the activity. And I found that I use it now as some form of stress relief and not seeing It is like this thing that I have to toil away at and, you know, part of adulting. And like, that’s also framing the purpose of it. It’s just like kind of paying bills.


Jen Moff  10:09

People argue about that. They’re like, well, I don’t love paying bills, right? Well, I do actually enjoy investing in things that make my life better. Notice that subtle reframe. It’s not about like people taking things for me, it’s about me investing in the things that I value, and that make my life more rich and more full. So it’s, it’s definitely a mindset for sure, that’s a starting place.


Heather Clark  10:37

And it really sounds like if a way to describe this would be choosing to do it, or at least being willing to choose to do it, making it real in the ether playing with it, and imagination, land and all of that, and allowing that to be, at least in my words, a form of Shadow Work. Oh, what are my preconceived notions here? What are my hidden beliefs? What are my projections? Oh, goodness, do I have a commitment to struggle here? And that’s why I’m not willing to let this go. And and then moving through it to the other side, and then discovering what’s available. Like for you what was available is Oh, I like the high quality clean. And with that reframe, it’s actually a stress relief. Mm hmm. Whereas before, it was probably


Jen Moff  11:29

got to do laundry, you know,


Heather Clark  11:32

and you’re able to move through it. So it wasn’t that bypass of Oh, I don’t like paying bills, let me just change how I think about it. It was like, I don’t like paying bills. Great. And then you sat with it, and move through it. And oh, let me connect to what I truly love about it. I truly love these services. I truly love having, you know, the roof over my head? And yes, the hot water and


Jen Moff  11:59

yes, yes.


Heather Clark  12:02

And and Do you find that it is important to move through it? Or have you and your clients been able to get there with a simple reframe? Typically?


Jen Moff  12:09

It depends. I think that’s a good question. Um,


Jen Moff  12:13

it honestly it just for me personally, and for my clients separately, I think it just depends. It’s a case by case situation. The things that I don’t need it for personally, are ones that I have a less less emotional attachment to. So if there’s less emotional charge, it’s it’s as simple as saying, Okay, well, what’s a different way to look at this, that could also be true? And it might be that I’ve already done work in that area. So the charge has already dissipated. But if I hadn’t done it in certain areas, it wouldn’t have spilled over there. And I would have had to do that deeper work? I don’t know. But it when when there’s more charged round things emotionally, when I’m clinging to something even more. That’s what I know. Okay, fine. I’ll just sit with this for a while. And I’ll explore this. And I’ll ask myself those questions and keep pulling the thread until I see the the root and the core of the apple, so to speak.


Heather Clark  13:14

What has become available to you, once you really shifted into doing only what turns you want?


Jen Moff  13:22

Oh, hmm. So, you know, certainly we’re recording this during COVID-19 in 2020. And a lot of things that I normally would have just said yes to, or out of kind of autopilot and habit. And because I, I knew I was good at something and I got results at something. But once COVID stepped in and forced me to pause and take certain things off the table. So that I had to kind of be confronted with the truth about all of my decision making. I really realized how often I was accepting good instead of holding out for great. And there’s this period in between Good to Great that a lot of people aren’t comfortable sitting in and at times, myself included.


Jen Moff  14:27

What happens is, you have to say no to enough things that all of a sudden there’s like this, there’s kind of wonky, wild tension of like sitting in. Like you’re in suspension of some sort, like I wouldn’t say a void but it’s just like there’s darkness and you can’t really see exactly what’s coming but you know that without holding on to all those things. There’s now like space to pick up new stuff. Once those new things come into your awareness. And so now, on the other side of some of that tension, I’ve been able to get clarity on what are the things that I really, really used to love that I’ve ignored or neglected. And that’s given me a lot of excitement. Like, really deep down excitement in my body. Certainly there’s like, then a little wave of fear afterwards, because it’s different. And I’d have to stretch myself to another new level. But the excitement that I am feeling now about certain things, I can’t remember the last time I felt at that level, and just being able to experience that as is huge, just huge, huge, huge, because I didn’t realize I was missing it, because I was just accepting good over and over again.


Heather Clark  15:55

How are you able to discern the difference between good and great?


Jen Moff  16:02

Great, you can feel it in your body. Great, gives you a tingling sensation up and down your spine. Great makes you smile. As soon as you start thinking about it. Great. expands your field. more opportunities and ideas come in? Good. Is autopilot. Good is results. Good is taking action on things that other people suggest because they see things that you do well.


Jen Moff  16:47

Good is habit.


Jen Moff  16:52

Good is your comfort zone?


Heather Clark  17:01

would you characterize good as the what sounds like it’s almost a killer of possibilities. share more about that? And whether or not you agree or disagree? Or what’s your perspective on that?


Jen Moff  17:15

It’s good, a killer of possibility.


Heather Clark  17:20

Or at least a killer of excitement and joy?


Jen Moff  17:22

I would say it’s definitely more killer of excitement and joy. I don’t know that. It’s a killer of possibility. Because sometimes what I’ve found is people have to get so uncomfortable with their current circumstances that they’re, you know, beyond fed up to make the change. So if you’re in good long enough, there can still be some kind of like tipping point that will lead to what what else is possible? If If you know, on paper, everything looks right. You know, everybody looks at my life and thinks everything’s great at the bottom I lead. But inside just something feels kind of flat. That can give way to possibility.


Heather Clark  18:10

the proverbial is this all there is yes, yes. Oh, I’ve achieved this thing. And who cares?


Jen Moff  18:16

Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, now. That’s fun. swell. Huh, whoop dee doo. You know, it’s


Jen Moff  18:29

when you said before about definitely a killer of possibility and joy. I think that’s that’s nail on the head. I was explaining this to a couple of clients recently. And I said, because we were talking about the difference between like submitting to your turn on versus surrendering. And this this one person was suggesting that oh, you know, I need to surrender to this seems like none Mmm, no, no, no, no,


Jen Moff  18:56

that is that is not what you’re wanting to do. Because surrender. Like think of it in the context of somebody that has escaped from prison or something. I watched Hannibal over COVID. So definitely, I had that in my brain at the time. But the character eventually surrendered to the police after he had escaped. And he exhibited this kind of like, defeat this, alright, I’ll just accept what is not. Any other options. This is like I’ve been cornered. I’m just I’ll give up. And that’s not an energy we want to bring to anything that we say yes to. We want to submit meaning like, give up control over anything else, and have our loyalty be to what excites us and I’m explaining this to a client. And this is somebody who has, at various times during our work together had trouble advocating for themselves, or setting back boundaries, that kind of stuff. And so, when I presented this, I said, Just imagine for a second, if every single person out there was doing the things that lit them up that brought them joy, how pleasurable would it be for all of us to interact with people like that? Would that be amazing? It’s not selfish to say yes to yourself and don’t say no to anything that doesn’t like turn you the hell on. Because that was also a piece of it was like, Oh, well, that’s selfish. Why was selfish a bad word? When did we decide being selfish is bad risks lap? You know, it’s, I think people have misconstrued what selfish is and they’re trying to project this idea that it you know, of evilness, or of fear rooted behavior and on anything, we can be self focused. But that’s more of like this passive, just doing the bare minimum check off the boxes of self care, because it’s the, you know, keeping up with the Joneses thing that right looks like this thing. But to really submit to your own turn on to say, I’m okay with being selfish, because then I can provide from overflow because then when I’m happy and excited and filled with joy, that’s going to inspire other people to want the same thing and to do the same thing. And how pleasurable and pleasant would that be to be around nothing, but people that are, like just so exuberant, about life and their experiences, what a world that would be,


Heather Clark  21:38

that would be amazing. And I really love this concept, because, you know, you may or may not know, but one of the things that I teach about profound self care is that step one, put yourself first, ruthlessly and relentlessly. And then Emily, with clients, we spend at least one or two sessions talking about how that isn’t selfish and what is, right. How, how could you provide for anybody, if you’re not first putting yourself first late. And it’s just tripping all over myself? Because I just get really worked up about it, because it’s my opinion that we have been generally conditioned, that selfish is bad. Because it inconveniences someone in authority.


Jen Moff  22:26



Heather Clark  22:29

And when you’re five, that’s a big deal. Like you’ve been convenient, somebody in authority, you’re getting trained up to be social and interact with other people.


Jen Moff  22:41

But what’s that said, obedient?


Heather Clark  22:44

Exactly. To be a good little boy or girl, and then you’re out on your own, and you’re a good little boy or girl, and your life is falling to crap. And that’s not okay. So it’s about if you’re worried about being selfish. Who does that inconvenience? What does your action who would that maybe inconvenience? Yeah. And whether it’s an actual real present, oh, my life partner would be super inconvenienced by that. Or if it’s, you know, when I was a kid, my mom would have been disappointed in me, inconvenienced. And I really love that this is an opportunity to move through. And again, in my words, the deep Shadow Work, this is the deep work of life by focusing on things that really turn you on. I mean, how can you go wrong here?


Jen Moff  23:37

You really can’t. It’s like, I was telling somebody the other day have a great interview question, because at one point, I did some recruiting in corporate America. So sharing this one question that I used to always ask because then it opens all these other doors to other questions. And that’s what this selfish thing does, in the shadow work space. It opens up all these other doors for healing, for transformation for discovery. It’s just, like a great springboard.


Heather Clark  24:10

I love it. And for people who are listening to this are like, but I’m going to lose all of my friends. All of my relationships. First of all, that’s probably not true. But second of all, if those relationships aren’t lighting you up, why do you have them?


Jen Moff  24:26

ding ding.


Heather Clark  24:28

Like, how much of your energy are you channeling into just maintaining something that doesn’t even give you the return on your investment?


Jen Moff  24:36

Yeah, there was a long time that I had that fear. That was a huge hurdle that I had to work through years ago. Because like rejection and abandonment was one of my kind of core wounds, if you will, that I kept revisiting, and I just could not, could not fathom this idea. Doing something that would make somebody like upset. And so that led to people pleasing and perfectionism and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all those things, everything’s related, right. And I finally came to this, like complete acceptance and belief in the notion that people enter our lives, you know, for for different times for different purposes. And the best way that I can love somebody is to give up that control over how that looks and for how long that looks. And yes, that’s absolutely true if the if the concern and the fear is that you potentially would lose relationships, I can tell you that I have lost some relationships. And I have gained so many more, that have been respectful, and conscious, and accepting and loving and nourishing and empowering, that I would never have ever imagined one could exist, or that I would be lucky enough to have more than one.


Heather Clark  26:13

hard agree like, hard agree, same issue for me, I was like, Oh, no, but what I discovered is it made not only made room for more people in my life that I truly enjoyed, and all of that I was somehow more available to them like they could really see was. So now my life is filled with relationships with people that are no work for me. And I’m, I’m an introvert and relationships are like, okay, most people would have texted to check in at this point. So I should probably put that on the calendar and like, like, I’m trying to live into this good person archetype. Yeah. And like, No, that’s too hard. But when I’ve really focused on what works for me, with the understanding that what works for me works for everybody. Yes. And if that doesn’t work for them, that’s great. We’re not a fit. Yeah. May the force be with you.


Jen Moff  27:16

would have tried to make like a giant. What are the what are they don’t call them swords? What are the lightsaber noise? Like? Yeah.


Jen Moff  27:25

I don’t know how I did, though.


Heather Clark  27:28

sounded great.


Jen Moff  27:29

Thank you. Thank you.


Heather Clark  27:30

So now I have friends that are like no work. It’s just it’s pure joy. Yeah. And it’s delightful. And yeah, if you had asked me a few years ago, I’ve been like, yeah, sure, sure. I believe that when I see it, hmm.


Heather Clark  27:46

Yeah, and, and I agree with what you’re saying about not earlier on not taking on clients that aren’t a good fit, or not taking on clients that it doesn’t feel like it’s going to be fun. And when you make that choice, not only do at least in my experience, not only do I get more out of it, I have more available for clients, and then they are able to get even better results. Like when you wait and ensure the good fit. Boy, everybody wins.


Heather Clark  28:13

Mm hmm.


Heather Clark  28:14

And one of the things that helped me do that, and maybe this will be helpful for someone listening, is I realized, why would I deprive someone of an opportunity for something truly amazing.


Jen Moff  28:28



Heather Clark  28:29

And it’s really shifted everything. So I really love this idea of only doing what turns you on, and especially what if we all adopted this loyalty to what excites us? Oh, yes.


Jen Moff  28:42



Heather Clark  28:44

Like, how much fun would that be?


Jen Moff  28:48

It’s like,


Jen Moff  28:50

I think about sometimes I make the joke was like, you know, communism was was only good in concept and reality, it didn’t shake out so well. And there’s a lot of things that are like that in life that in concept, it sounds great, but in reality, it’s crap. This is not one of those things. This is something that is great in concept and great in reality and possible in reality, you just have to be willing to say,





Jen Moff  29:18

I’m gonna decide to try this to look at something differently to do something differently to stretch myself to get uncomfortable for a little while until it feels comfortable. And it’s always been worth it my experience.


Heather Clark  29:37

So what are some of the things that are helpful for people to move into this? Like, okay, so I’m just gonna get committed to being loyal to what excites me. Great. Step one. Just people snart


Jen Moff  29:53

That’s great. I so little bit of like, my backstory. I think it kind of fits here. So I’m your origin story,



a little bit of origin story. Poor moron. Yes.


Jen Moff  30:09

So I’m 38. And about two years ago, I realized that 36, I was like, ah, 3600 half my life, up until 18, I lived under my parents roof, and the other half have been on my own. And the period when I was on my own that transition point, there was a lot of trauma. And I completely disconnected from that part of myself, 18 and younger. And the second 18 years, were just filled with struggle, and other traumas and pain and disease. And so I realized this, it’s 36. And I was like, Alright, I’m entering a whole new period of 18 years now. It’s going to be different. And it has been, what I realized over these last two years is the part of me that I had completely disconnected from 18 was like this inner artist aspect of myself. And prior to going to college, you know, I enjoyed doing ballet. And I even took cheerleading for a while, I took art classes, and all sorts of different mediums from charcoal and pastels to pottery. And I started acting. In seventh grade. That was the first play I was, in fact, when I originally went to college I went for, for theater and performance, and I got a scholarship. But that first fall of college, I experienced a date rape, and it completely dis railed, like, all the parts of me. And so it’s only been in these last two years that I’ve been willing to kind of integrate, and even see that other 18 years of my life that I had kind of said, Oh, I can’t I can’t even look, look, before that time, like it was just too, too much or too painful, or just shut down to that. So doing all of this, this lifeless living, you know, I had created other identities for myself, I had created other ways that I had relate to people and how I would provide for myself and businesses, all of which were great life experience. And I wouldn’t trade any of it. It just it became aware to me that this part of myself was missing. When I would come across other people would talk about things and I was like, Well, I know about that. And they would if it was a man, you know, they were there was definite like


Jen Moff  33:00

mansplaining to me after I had expressed like, No, I have, I have a solid degree in that I you know, that’s a huge chunk of my life. I worked professionally in that area for a while it was morning drive disc jockey Ed, like I’ve been paid to be in commercials, like there’s that whole part of my life that I just have not talked about. And I’ve distanced myself from it. So I’d get very frustrated inside. I’m like, Don’t talk to me about something that I know, don’t act like I’m ignorant or that you’re helping me understand something. And so I realized, Jen, Why are you getting so worked up about this. And I realized it was because I had segmented so much of my own life, and only been willing to talk about certain things. I was very comfortable talking about the rape, I was comfortable talking about the abusive relationships that followed. But for some reason, I was not comfortable talking about this, like artistic part of myself, this entertainer and performer that I was for a large portion of my life. And so that was kind of the first step for me was recognizing I was getting annoyed at people when they would talk about things that I had knowledge on or interest in. And I had to get curious again go like why doesn’t why why are we upset here, Jen? What’s going on. And that gave way to me realizing I needed to, like fully integrate everything that excites me. And at one point, I distance myself from that artistic world and from the acting space because it was not healthy for me emotionally tapping back into different experiences for emotional recall, to be able to perform a certain scene was not good for me because I hadn’t done enough healing. And so I wanted to distance myself from it. There was so much drama and quote unquote, in the acting world, but I was like, I can’t deal with these people. And it made it easy to just kind of turned a blind eye until I couldn’t anymore. And that’s, that’s really that first step is you getting confronted with something about yourself that you’ve tried to ignore, and you’ve tried to avoid that you’ve maybe like, shut away or neglected or something that wants to be heard. And, you know, just like the human body, when we have like a toothache or we stub our toe pain is an indicator that we need to pay attention to something and see what’s going on. So from an emotional standpoint, that’s going to work the same way. Why am I emotionally charged up about this guy trying to tell me about how to find the light on a stage like No, dude, you need to slow your roll. I’ve, I’m good in that department. So that’s the first piece is like, stop ignoring your emotional discomfort about things that maybe you once cared about, especially from the earlier parts in your life. Before, you know, romantic relationships became the priority before academics became your priority. What were the things that you got excited about? Just because just because what did you enjoy? What did you you know, want to learn more about? How did you use your time? That’s a great indicator of things that naturally, before there was any pressure from outside resources, or outside sources, pardon me, to tell you what right looks like or what you should be doing? or How to Be a good girl or Good boy. Go back and revisit those things. Because I guarantee there’s something there worth mining.


Heather Clark  36:49

I really love that your step one is stop ignoring the discomfort not figure out what really lights you up just but just figure out what’s uncomfortable. Where’s the pain? Where’s the attention indicator, and not and then attack it? Beat it into submission? Oh, I love this a really sit with it and export. It sounds like you bring a great curiosity to it. Thank you. Thank you.


Jen Moff  37:18

Curiosity is served me very well in life. It’s funny at home, there’s home movies of me at like six or seven. And I’m just standing at the front of the living room. And I’m singing this song about me being a curious kitty. And it just popped into my mind right now. And I guess it’s never left like that. That curiosity, part of me is just alive and dwell.


Heather Clark  37:47

I love that. And, you know, it’s, I’m curious as well. And that’s why I was saying the other day that podcasting is like the best thing for curious introverts. Because I’m able to do all the things I used to get in trouble for and that is ask questions until people are exhausted. I understand what we’re doing.


Jen Moff  38:12

You got in trouble for that as well. I see.


Heather Clark  38:14

Yeah. And then why? And tell me more. And,


Jen Moff  38:18

yes, I can remember Heather, I don’t know how old I was. I must have been like eight or nine or something. We were sitting at the kitchen table at dinner. And I was just jabber and jabber and question after question, just like you’re talking about here. And my parents were like, Jen, let’s, let’s play a game. We’re gonna set the timer on the microwave and see how long you can go without talking. And they thought that that’d be funny and not to be cute. And so I was like, Alright, because I’m a little competitive. I didn’t last 10 seconds because I thought of stuff that I just had to know about.


Heather Clark  38:52

I love it. And I really think if people were able to allow people to be curious and ready to respond, there’s a lot of juice there. Because I had one of my nephews when he was at the asking why age? I I just treat them like they’re people because I don’t I don’t know how to relate to like as a kid. So it’s well, Heather, why this? Well, it’s because of this. Okay, great. And what about this? Why is that happening? Oh, it’s because of that. And I tell you what, you don’t get very far before you just start questioning all your life choices. Like you know, honey, that is a great question. I don’t know why we do that. That is a great question. That is silly. Let’s not do that anymore. Okay. new plan.


Jen Moff  39:37

Thank you for this gift. Yeah, man, young lady. Out of the mouths of babes.


Heather Clark  39:44

Exactly. What are you three and a half? You’re right.


Jen Moff  39:50

My new spiritual teacher His name is is Billy.


Heather Clark  39:55

Exactly, but why not? Ask the question, why not allow curiosity to lead you wherever it’s going? Because I really think that what lights you up could potentially be on the other side? I think one of the things we’re afraid of, is we got to shut those questions down is because we’re afraid of whatever, we don’t know the answer, or we’re afraid of what the answer will be. But what if, on the other side of it, you pick up all the old hobbies used to have and you stop doing all the stuff you think is silly? And, you know, you do that deeper work of? Well, if I only do what lights me up, that means it’s not the dishes? And what about it, like, moving through all of it? Why not?


Jen Moff  40:39

Yeah, I remember.


Jen Moff  40:42

Because this is an election year, I was talking to my parents about some things a couple months back, and my dad loves golfing, like, he’s retired. He’s earned the right to go golfing three, four times a week. And so he was sharing about, like, when I go golfing with my golfing buddies, we don’t talk politics, it’s off limits. And I was like, do you know why that is dad. And he just kind of sat there and looked at me and just waited. I said, Because here’s what happens. If two people that have like, formed their entire identities around certain beliefs and attitudes and values, disagree, and especially in like older generations and different paradigms of what, you know, healthy relationships look like, these two individuals standing there, you know, across from the, the same trap, and they’re having opposing points of view about whatever it is, in this case, it was politics, but it could be about anything. What happens is, if this person has a different point of view than this one, they can’t both be right. So they have to advocate for I’m right. Or if I’m not right, then then I’m wrong. And I can’t be wrong. So you have to be wrong, and neither one of them wants to be wrong. Because what happens is, if you’re wrong, then if I’m wrong about this, then what else in my life is wrong? And what else and so it’s just this precarious house of cards that can just come tumbling down. And your whole identity and ego is just at stake. So we’re seeing and I think you might be able to speak to this here. And I’d like your point of view, how much more we’re seeing different people and pockets of cultures and generations that are more and more comfortable with having a fluidity around identity and their ego so that they can be wrong. And there’s not this existential crisis, if disagreement happens, or holding two opposing thoughts in their minds, have you experienced similar or something different?


Heather Clark  42:39

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And in fact, that’s what often precipitates a lot of crashes, whether it’s burnout, whether it’s problems, it’s there’s been some identity piece that got challenged, and you discover that perhaps your perspective wasn’t the most functional yet, but instead of Oh, all right, new plan. here’s, here’s something that’s more functional, it’s more aligned. That’s not often what happens. It’s wailing gnashing of teeth and major problems. That’s actually fairly normal. And I’m really liking the more fluidity that’s coming into the culture.


Heather Clark  43:22

But I think it’s very challenging and confronting for people. Yeah, I’m, so I’m ashamed to say that I did not understand Black Lives Matter. And that came to me with it was around Ferguson. And I just kept hearing it and I was like, and I did the horrible, typical, but all lives matter. And I’m like, I don’t get it. Uh huh. So I thought I don’t get it. Let me learn more about it and understand the point of view. And then I can either agree or disagree with it, but at least I can speak intelligently about it. Yeah. And then I did the work. And I was like, oh, oh, I’ve been wrong. I’m, I get it now. Thank you, and I’m completely on board. And for me, that’s just kind of how I roll. That’s why I was allowing my young nephew to basically have me questioning all of my life decisions, because why not?


Jen Moff  44:20

I mean, there’s no real harm in questioning yourself. There’s only perceived harm in being wrong. It doesn’t mean anything about us. We just decide that it doesn’t which case, then we avoid it.


Heather Clark  44:36

Exactly. And then when you move through and change your point of view, and whether people agree with me or disagree with me about my position on Black Lives Matter, whatever, that’s fine, you’re entitled to your own opinions. And but the thing is, like I I’m kind of a show your work kind of a person. If you disagree with me, that’s fine. And if you’d like to continue To have a conversation, let’s really talk about it. Because I’m not saying I’m right. But it’s when you discover that people.


Heather Clark  45:10

How do I want to put this?


Heather Clark  45:11

Basically it boils down to because that’s what I believe. Like, okay, that’s great. But is that working for you? Where else in your life? Are you doing something just because that’s what you believe drawn a


Jen Moff  45:25

line in the sand just because you can?


Heather Clark  45:28

It’s because you can. And, okay. That’s an interesting choice. You’re not necessarily wrong. You’re not necessarily right. But


Jen Moff  45:36

that’s an interesting choice. It’s also what you just said, reminded me. It’s this idea that there are multiple realities and points of view cannot exist simultaneously. Like, yes, all lives do matter. And yes, Black Lives Matter right now. And that is why we are lifting them up. It’s, it’s this, like, only one, only one kind of thing can can be at the top or be the most important or when or, you know, be the thing, whatever it is. So I think that that’s something like we are modeling and seeing more and more. I don’t know how we got on this topic. But I’m really excited that we’re here. It’s, it’s really interesting. But just before this recording, I had a conference call with a freelancing client who does like identity and diversity work for youth and those who work with youth. And we just found out that they are going to be closing their doors, not for lack of demand, there’s so much demand. And they also all have other jobs. And so it’s this like, oh, gosh, we want to do this in a right way. But we don’t have the bandwidth. And you know, there’s not enough to be able to like start scaling. So they’ve decided to, to lean back effectively. There’s so much change that’s happening right now, because people are willing to question themselves to be curious about things to admit what they don’t know. And to be able to hold opposing, you know, truths. intention is a real gift, I think.


Heather Clark  47:14

I think it is to and it’s a gift, but I think it’s also something that’s a muscle that can be exercised and strengthen that ability. Yes. And if you’re able to hold things intention, like, I think there’s a lot of power there.


Jen Moff  47:28

Mm hmm.


Heather Clark  47:31

And I also believe that the people who appear to just double down without consideration, um, I wonder if a lot of it isn’t, well, if I’m wrong about this, then I’m wrong about everything else. And then my whole house of cards falls to pieces. Or if it’s, it’s about like winning Oh, I can’t give this up. Because then I’ve just been very curious about it. And I wonder if it isn’t that, that feeling of safety and security? Yes. When it’s all nailed down? Yes.


Jen Moff  48:09

Yes, safety is a huge, huge theme that I’ve had to work with in my own life, because of those traumas, you know, feeling safe in my body, feeling safe in relationship, feeling safe in relationship to other things like money and like productivity and my place in the world. So, like, safety is a big theme when we experience a trauma. And traumas look different for different people, there’s big t traumas, and little t traumas. And we all are seeking for safety. That’s part of the reason that I know for me, as a child, I did ask more questions. Because the more information I had, the more informed I could be, and the better decision I could make. And I can trust it because I have enough data. And that was largely because I didn’t know how to trust myself or get the right information from my body and trust that whatever was happening for me, was actually for me, and not to me, safety is something we could talk about at length, but I,


Heather Clark  49:12

I love it, but that the information actually information is a form of support.


Jen Moff  49:18

But if I’m appreciating the nuance of what you’re sharing, like information was required for you, but it felt like you were leaning on it more heavily than your own internal knowing. Is that the gist of what you were sharing? Oh, absolutely. For a large portion of my life. I definitely was like in the over plan over research, over overdo whatever it was so that like whatever externally was out there. I could, you know, unfortunately, it will just be like very frank so I could manipulate it to my advantage. So I would feel safe. It wasn’t like a malicious manipulation, but it was purely for like, how can I How can I protect Myself, kind of thing. So what I would do was completely kind of disassociate from my own body, because it happened once during the trauma. And so anytime I was confronted with any stressor, it would happen again. So the only way that I knew how to make decisions was to gather as much information as possible, and ask as many people for their opinions as possible, and make pro con lists and like, never really feel good about the decision. I just kind of made a choice based off of the data. And nine times out of 10, it was to go back to where we kind of started, it was stuff that would lead me to good, not great.


Heather Clark  50:45



Heather Clark  50:47

And I’ve loved that you were sharing about safety as a theme, because safety is a theme for a lot of people. But boy, 2020, safety is a theme for most everybody. There’s, you know, actual physical safety, health and wellness, financial safety, so much uncertainty. And I think it’s up for a lot of people. Yeah. What are you finding helpful for yourself and for your clients, to really, I guess, to help with safety, what’s helping people feel safe, and what’s helping them shift, so they have more of an experience of safety.


Jen Moff  51:26

I was actually talking to a colleague about this on Monday. I’ve been very lucky, in that the clients that I’ve been working with this year, have thrived professionally right now. One has had her best year in her business, another has gotten a new job with better compensation and benefits package. Not not losing the previous job, just like transitioned into a new role.


Jen Moff  52:01

And so, you know, just those are two examples. And it was like interesting that I was able to see that I’m lucky that I don’t have clients right now that are struggling. That doesn’t mean that I haven’t I had a client a couple of years ago that the entire year she was looking for work, and struggling and having to borrow money from family and friends to just stay afloat and staying on somebody else’s couch in their spare, you know, like den area. And so when I think about that experience, and transplant it into 2021 of the things that worked really well, for her was regular support.


Jen Moff  52:48

And support can mean different things to different people, in my opinion, support at at a minimum is having some buddy or some buddies, whether it’s a coach, a healer, a therapist, somebody that is an a professional, permeate as part of their profession does this kind of work, not necessarily a friend or family member, because they’re also experiencing these things. Not to say that the professionals aren’t either but they are equipped to support people in the situation, they have their own teams that they get support from as well.


Jen Moff  53:29

And they’re, you know, better educated in this area. So having somebody to help you stay on whatever path is most ideal for you whether that’s having a goal to work for, toward whether that’s doing some deep work to get past whatever resistance that you’ve uncovered during 2020 that those things are really valuable. Another thing I found is encouraging all of my clients to find something that they’ve wanted to do that they’ve never allowed themselves to do, or maybe they’ve let go of it and now want to revisit it, but finding a hobby or some kind of activity, within reason, considering you know, each state here in the US and each country has their own protocols as to what you know, social distancing, and safety measures are in place. like finding things that you can do to look forward to that will boost your mood are actually a really great way to make you feel safe. Because there’s some sense of normalcy, there’s some excitement, there’s learning new things which activate a different part of the brain.


Jen Moff  54:46

So both of those things I found really, really valuable. And aside from that, like really just tending to your nervous system, so doing activities that keep you grounded in your body. So maybe that stands Maybe that’s Epsom salt baths, maybe that’s self massage, any of those things that’s going to help your nervous system, like really stay in a neutral zone. And one of the tools, like a physical tool that I recommend is what’s called a craniosacral cradle, you can get them on online for fairly inexpensive, low prices. And basically, you lay on the ground. And you position this foam device at the kind of nape of your neck and it presses the way that it’s signed, it has kind of like two little knobs and it presses into these areas in the back of your neck or your spinal column meets your your brain and connects the fluid and the craniosacral system in the body.


Jen Moff  55:48

And so you lay there with that pressure applied to those areas for a few minutes. And that stops the flow of that that spinal fluid, not to a point where you’re like, Oh, this is bad, it’s, there’s, that’s not a thing that’s going to happen. But what it does is it acts as like a reset for your nervous system. And so at the end of the day, I found that find that to be really valuable just to lay on the floor, have that underneath the nape of my neck, and give myself five to 15 minutes there, take it out, remain laying there for a little bit, just do some breath work. And I find myself so relaxed to go to bed, feel very grounded, feel very just in my body. So that’s, that’s a lot of things. But that’s those are things that I found really useful in 2020. And prior to this situation that we’re all in today.


Heather Clark  56:39

Thank you so much. It’s so robust, I love it. And I had forgotten the cranial sacral cradle even existed. Because it’s been a while since I’ve gotten that cranial sacral therapy, and it’s just been so helpful. So I will be noodling on the internet to locate me one of those that’s


Jen Moff  56:59

also called stillpoint inducers. So if you can’t find a cranial sacral cradle, it’s also called a stillpoint inducer.


Heather Clark  57:08

I love it. And that would infuse some sometimes a gadget is what infuses some energy. Practice trees for me. So why not? they’re inexpensive? Absolutely.


Jen Moff  57:19

Yeah. Because it’s, it’s something like in in the world that we can actually hold on to some of the other activities are much more like cerebral, if you will. So this is this is definitely something that helps. And then try to


Heather Clark  57:32

I agree with you. cerebral but valuable, powerful. It’s just, you know, sometimes your inner child needs a gadget to hold.


Jen Moff  57:40

Yeah, just saying, Yeah, the cerebral stuff is just as valuable to me. It’s about like, prescribing certain things depending on what your need is. And like you said, sometimes the like you you’ve articulated the inner child needs something to hold. If you’re somebody that is like more anxious and living in your head. Having activities where you’re not spending time there right away. There’s also a good reason to use a tool.


Heather Clark  58:05



Heather Clark  58:08

Love it. So Jen, tell me, what does it mean to you to be unshakable?


Jen Moff  58:14

To be unshakable? The first thing that came to mind was to be human.


Jen Moff  58:21

And I’m sure that easily we could follow up with what does it mean to be human.


Jen Moff  58:27

Basically, when I think of the phrase, unshakable, it’s a sensation that I get in my body.


Jen Moff  58:39

As I let the word wash over me, I feel this kind of like, gentle confidence and relaxation, and groundedness. Like, almost the way a tree kind of as deeply connected to the earth. And even when there’s a hurricane, or a nor’easter for those of us here in New England, or a typhoon or anything that’s going to, you know, create impact on this, this tree. It’s flexible, it moves with it, it doesn’t snap. Certainly, I’ve also lived in areas where there are tornadoes, and the the tree is impacted by a tornado, but it’s not


Jen Moff  59:26



Jen Moff  59:27

It’s just bent. And it’s okay if things bend It’s okay if things move It’s okay if things happen, you know, to you, but it’s a willingness to move with whatever is happening around you. That’s to me what it means.


Jen Moff  59:48

So that you are living that that’s you know, when when I said before, it’s about like being a human being it’s we’re not robots, we don’t exist. In a vacuum we don’t, we’re not made of cardboard, we are multifaceted. And embracing all parts of that and rolling with whatever comes at us with acceptance and openness and curiosity.


Heather Clark  1:00:16

Beautiful, thank you.


Jen Moff  1:00:18

My pleasure.


Heather Clark  1:00:20

Sir, anything else that you wanted to share that we haven’t had a chance to get to today?


Jen Moff  1:00:26

I think the only thing that I could consider adding is a challenge. As it relates to doing only what turns you on, to think about, like, you’re not going to find every single thing that turns you on it. And I’m not saying you’re not going to find everything. But what I mean is, you’re not going to be turned by every single thing that comes into your, your, your life. And that’s normal. And that’s okay. And maybe only one in 100 things actually turns you on. That would be something you could expect. So anticipating that there’s going to be more nose than yeses is something to be aware of, and celebrate. And know that with each know you’re giving more and more space for that one and 100 thing that is going to just make you so delicious, really excited and happy and joyful.


Heather Clark  1:01:27



Heather Clark  1:01:28

Jen, where can we find you?


Jen Moff  1:01:31

You can find me at my website, the th e Jen.


Jen Moff  1:01:35

Je n


Jen Moff  1:01:36

MOFF Mo, f And you can find me all over social media at the genmark as well.


Heather Clark  1:01:45

Beautiful and that will all be in the show notes people so it’s very easy to find. Jen, thank you so much as always, it’s an absolute delight.



Thank you. Thank you so much.


Heather Clark  1:01:57

Thank you so much for listening to Unshakable Being. You’ll find more information in the episode show notes at Subscribe to the podcast and share with your friends. May you be unshakable, unstoppable, and vibrant again. Until next time.