More than Mindset: Trusting Yourself and Being Seen with Angella Johnson

What if your struggles with being seen and trusting yourself WASN’T a mindset issue? Join Angella Johnson (Creator of Intuitive Marketing Matrix and The Collective for Creator) and I as we explore what’s REALLY going on with not trusting yourself and struggling with visibility issues.

We touch on trauma, the patriarchy, gaslighting, manipulation, sacrificing yourself, and other underlying problems with being seen and trusting yourself…and what to do about it.

Today’s Guest

Angella Johnson

Creator of Intuitive Marketing Matrix and The Collective for Creators

After investing a quarter of a million dollars on coaches and courses, Angella Johnson found some cold-hard-TRUTH:
Her soulful business could NOT fit into someone else’s paint-by-numbers formulas no matter how hard she worked.
(And neither can yours.)

When the promise of “work harder and push harder” led to burnout and breakdown, Angella burned her business down in 2012 to rebuild with her intuition and spiritual connection in the forefront.

That’s when she discovered that she wasn’t the only one who was craving soul with strategy. This ignited her mission to bring magic, joy, ease, and intuition along with messaging and marketing strategy that created real results for her clients.

As the founder of The Collective for Creators and the creator of the Intuitive Marketing Matrix™ and the Soul Message Archetypes™, she blazes the path for entrepreneurs to trust themselves, break the rules, and radically change what they think is possible and make more money without the hustle or hype.

She has shared stages with visionary leaders including Lisa Nichols, Elizabeth Gilbert, and Lynn Twist, and works with global clients in her classes, courses, events, and as private clients.

Get free trainings and connect with her at


The Collective for Creators

episode transcription

Heather Clark  00:02

Welcome to Unshakable Being: inspiration and practical tools for purpose led helpers, guides and leaders like you to shift out of stress, stop going in circles, and get what you want in your life, body and business. I am Dr. Heather Clark, and I’ll be your host.


Heather Clark  00:19

Hello, and thanks for joining us. Today we have on the show, Angella Johnson. I am so excited about this. Angella has been in business for many years, and she’s invested a great deal of money on coaches and courses. But what she discovered was some cold hard truth. Her soulful business could not fit into somebody else’s paint by numbers formula, no matter how hard she tried. And she’s also discovered that’s not true for any of us.


Heather Clark  00:51

And there’s a lot of us that have bought into that promise of work harder and push harder, but it leads to burn down, pardon me burnout and break down like it did for Angella. But how she responded when this happened to her in 2012. She just burned her whole business down and rebuilt from the ground up using her intuition and spiritual connection. She’s discovered boy, she’s not the only one out there that feels like this. And it’s ignited her mission. She’s founded many things, including the Collective for Creators, and she’s the creator of the Intuitive Marketing Matrix, and Soul Message Archetypes. Angella, I’m so excited to have you here. Welcome to the show.


Angella Johnson  01:33

Thank you, Heather. I’m so excited to be here with you.


Heather Clark  01:36

Oh, yes, I’m very much looking forward to this. Where I want to start today is I want to know why you feel like a lot of us struggle with visibility.


Angella Johnson  01:53

Well, I Well, here’s what I used to think. I used to think that it was just a mindset issue and that you just had to push your way through it. And just get comfortable with being seen. Well, recently, that has changed a great deal. And what I’m finding more and more is, especially for women, there are two things that are happening for women is one is we are operating in a system of patriarchy, where the system is designed so that women are seen but not heard. And you’re seen if you’re pretty, if you’re thin, if you’re white, if you’re wealthy, if you have the lifestyle, all of those things.


Angella Johnson  02:33

And the other thing that’s happening, and I’m seeing it in myself, I’m seeing in my clients is when we have trauma, then our bodies go into this freeze mode of it’s not safe to be seen. And the other thing that will add for that to this is women and then when you add other marginalized identities, so women of color, if you have a different sexual orientation than cisgender cisgendered or heterosexual then you also add that to the mix, then it’s really not safe to be seen. And so what I’m seeing in online marketing space in the coaching space, is that visibility is often treated with like, you just have to improve your mindset. And I’m calling bullshit on that. It’s not a mindset issue. This is a systemic issue. And we have to start addressing this from not only the inside out, but the outside in and really acknowledge what’s happening here. So that’s my, that’s my two cents about visibility and why women particularly struggle with it.


Heather Clark  03:35

That’s, that’s really fascinating, because I know, at least for myself, Oh, Heather, you just need to get over it. It’s a mindset issue, decide you can do it. And I was like, I think there’s a small thing that that’s actually true, but I just instinctively knew there was something else afoot. And especially as you point out, no, this is systemic patriarchy.


Angella Johnson  04:01



Heather Clark  04:01

like, right, because the people who are listened to tend to be people who present traditional patriarchal values. Beautiful, pretty soft spoken. accommodating. Straight.


Angella Johnson  04:21

Yes. Well, and you said something interesting, like those people we listened to. But we really like if you’re a man, we listen to you, if you’re a woman, we see you and you’re eye candy or you’re pretty. But do we really take you seriously? You know, there’s a reason why mansplaining is a term. And this is not about me getting on a high horse and you know, victimizing people or saying, you know, anything like that. It’s really just a deep, soulful acknowledgement of the system that we are building businesses in. And so how do we out create that? How do we create beyond while still acknowledging our lived experience


Heather Clark  05:06

So this brings to mind I had an incident recently in Target. Like I’m gonna dart in and just get some cheap little t shirts and move on with my life and oh my god. I’m like, I am not accustomed to being out in the world and Target on a Saturday may not have been a good place to start.


Angella Johnson  05:27

Maybe, but it could have been Costco so it could have been worse.


Heather Clark  05:31

And so I picked a line and just stopped and stood in line. Well, someone right behind me stopped at exactly the same time, but he decided that he had stopped first and he should be in front of me. And I started with the whole whatever dude, like I’m just not going to acknowledge this. And this is a young white male, straight presenting girlfriend on his arm and he was bitching up a storm.


Heather Clark  06:01

And what I realized is he is willing to be more confrontational than me. And and I can be confrontational don’t don’t get me wrong, but it’s just not worth it. There’s other checkouts. Right. And so I decided, you know, how do I want to show up here. And I realized I was in a double bind. This was a no win situation, no matter what I did, it was going to create more problems. So based on the system I was operating in, it felt like the only option was to just be like, Whatever. I’m just going to a different checkout because I don’t need to struggle.


Heather Clark  06:40

But as you might imagine, this stayed with me. And I feel like this was certainly echoes of patriarchy, because no matter what he was going to be right, based on the culture I was in, and I’m like, where else is this showing up in my life? Then later that day, and my Facebook feed pops up a bunch of men with a bunch of opinions that aren’t grounded in science or reality or even didn’t even have internal validity.


Heather Clark  07:17

Like, okay, even if we jump into magical world, all the crap you’re talking about doesn’t hang together. And for me, I just think this is an outgrowth of patriarchy. And it is difficult to be visible in those spaces.


Angella Johnson  07:34

Mm hmm. Yeah.


Heather Clark  07:35

And I just, you know, thanks for listening to my tirade, but I just wonder, what, what has been your experience? And how can a person begin to shift this both externally and internally?


Angella Johnson  07:48

Well, a couple of things. You know, one of the reasons I love that you just shared that story was because as women were taught to, oh, they they didn’t mean that. I’m just making this And so we Gaslight ourselves because the system gets gaslights our everyday lived experience. We like it’s not a big deal. It’s and you know, and there are you look at this online, women saying I’ve never had a disadvantage by being a woman. I don’t know what you’re talking about whining or complaining or going poor me.


Angella Johnson  08:23

It’s like this battle cry of Will you please see and hear me and stop pretending that this abuse is normal. Like we normalize this as behavior we normalized, that we have to be quiet, we have to be polite, we can’t speak up like this is normal. And we see this from a very young age of you know, girls will be girls boys will be boys of how we treat people of how we treat ourselves and so, so these everyday experiences we think, Oh, it’s not not really a big deal but then you start compounding those. And you start adding decades to living this way and being in this kind of a system.


Angella Johnson  09:07

And then we start this business and we’re so excited and we’re going to transform lives and there’s no income ceiling, on the amount of money we can make. And then when it comes time to really sharing the message and really putting ourselves out there or standing up on stage, what happens for women like I have often wondered, do women or do men have this holy shit moment before they step on stage to go God, I wish I would have lost 20 pounds. I wonder how I’m gonna look. I wonder if this looks okay. Like, do they obsess about this the way women do?


Angella Johnson  09:39

Like my, the men I’ve talked to were just like, No, I just show up what you’re talking about. And so we look at this like this. I think about it as compounding interest. You know, but instead of in a good way of like we’re making all this money in the bank.


Angella Johnson  09:54

This compounding interest is diluting our visibility. It’s diluting our presence. It’s actually this Almost like this cover up, like we have to be stuff like about, can I actually show up? Am I safe to be seen here? Or do I have to do the song and dance so that I fit into the box so that I’m acceptable.


Angella Johnson  10:17

And that’s usually on my, you know, by my tone, by my looks by being agreeable, you know, all those all those pieces and so so when we look at this, it’s it, it’s not just a I’m just gonna be visible today. And it’s really just acknowledging our own individual lived experience and getting support with the inner work that’s required to feel safe in our bodies, to feel a be safe and being seen and sharing a message in a way that’s authentic to us rather than this nicey nicey way that we’ve been taught to speak to make everyone around us I’d like to please everyone around us. So that was a little bit of a rant. Those are a couple of my thoughts.


Heather Clark  11:08

I love it. And I want to touch briefly back on the gaslighting. Because I remember when I was growing up, I was just like, and I did most of my growing up in the 80s. I’m like, This isn’t fair, this doesn’t work. And I kept being told no, no, it is fair, and you’re just seeing it wrong. And basically, my experience was later when I had words far as like, Oh, I’m being gaslit, essentially.


Heather Clark  11:35

And we watched Poltergeist here the other night on Netflix, which was made in the early 80s. And I gotta tell you, I felt so vindicated, because the behavior of these people in this movie was crazy. And I’m not even talking about the ghosts in the paranormal. their high school aged daughter was sexually harassed in their own backyard by three men in their 30s and 40s. Creepy. Their mom watched it and laughed about it. And I was like, WHAT?


Angella Johnson  12:11

Wow. Yeah,


Heather Clark  12:13

I was just like, yeah, this is the same kind of crap that’s been going on, which makes me wonder what’s happening now that we’re not actually able to see because we’re swimming in this system.


Angella Johnson  12:26



Heather Clark  12:26

So I really love what you’re saying here. I completely agree that it requires some support to do this inner work because just in many ways, existing in the system, the system that denies who you truly are, that’s a form of trauma, just that alone is a form of trauma.


Angella Johnson  12:47

Well, and let’s let’s talk about Well, two things I just shared with a friend the other day we were talking about 80s movies is still hold up to like if we watch them now like do they suck or are they good? And like I don’t know that any movie can hold up from the 80s because they’re all sexist, like you look at any movie from the 80s and I’m just like, wow, I, I am and like, I don’t want my eight year old niece to watch this. This is not how women are treated. And it is, but it’s not how I want women to be treated like this is there’s nothing normal about this. Your whole goal in life is not to look pretty for some boy.


Angella Johnson  13:22

And then, you know, just like these movies and just going oh, my goodness, no wonder wonder I have issues I did when I was in high school like this ain’t this some shit.


Angella Johnson  13:38

Um, but um, you know, on the flip side of this, it’s that the trauma piece is a friend explained this to me recently because I kept thinking, when I would hear the word trauma, it was the capital T trauma, like severe abuse, something significant in very challenging happened, you know, and that’s what’s creating PTSD. The all the challenges.


Angella Johnson  14:01

And what my friend was describing was like, well, there’s also the lowercase t trauma and not making anyone’s trauma story better than or less than, because trauma is trauma. But she used the example of you know, maybe you grew up in an environment where you were always walking on eggshells, because you didn’t know when someone is going to explode. And I was like, interesting that you use that example, because that was my whole experience.


Angella Johnson  14:28

And so just recently, and I think what’s happening with the world is, is pressing on that that trauma that we’ve all experienced, every single person has, and we’re seeing the signs of unhealed trauma all around us. The explosions, the anger, the divisiveness, the us against them. And it’s it’s it’s a journey to really look at yourself and acknowledge and recognize, Wow, I’ve experienced trauma and I’m holding it in my body somewhere. I’m holding it in my mind, and my energy.


Angella Johnson  15:01

And then, oh no, it’s time to write that email sequence. It’s time to be visible on social media. Nope, you’ve got to do live videos. And then you wonder why I just can’t quite do it. And so then people get into this beat up cycle of, I suck, why can’t I get my shit together? I’m procrastinating, you know, I need to do better. And so they spend time I spend time beating, beating myself up people spend time beating themselves up, rather than recognizing Wait, there might be something else happening here. And just the mere act of acknowledging that starts shifting the energy.


Heather Clark  15:37

Absolutely, absolutely. And another way of looking at trauma for those that don’t already know, it’s, it’s a way of saying it’s just on the stress spectrum. So it’s a stress that exceeds your ability to cope. So think about who you were, when you were five. How many coping skills did you really have when you were five? Like, not a lot maybe. So does it take a lot of trauma or a lot of stress to exceed your ability to cope? So I love this idea of the lowercase trauma. Because a long time ago, I used to think that well, you know, I don’t really have a trauma, and then you start looking at what the actual definition is. Oh, everybody does. Okay.


Angella Johnson  16:18

It’s just that being born is traumatic.


Heather Clark  16:21



Angella Johnson  16:22

You know, how the birth experience was for you and the person birthing you like, That alone is freakin traumatic. You know,


Heather Clark  16:32

Exactly. And, and yes, you’re gonna be holding it in your body, in your mind and your belief system. And it’s one of those things that can invisibly affect everything. And since it’s invisible, how would you even know except seeing how the world is reflected back to you?


Angella Johnson  16:51

Right. Right.


Heather Clark  16:55

So you know, one way of putting it is Oh, Well, everybody needs therapy and counseling for their trauma. And that might be true. But what have you found? It’s been helpful for yourself and for your clients to work through trauma, especially through the lens of being visible and being in business.


Angella Johnson  17:15

mm therapy.


Heather Clark  17:17

Yeah, right.


Angella Johnson  17:19

therapy. I’m a big fan. And that’s actually something recent that I’ve added to my life, you know, I, I recognized that I was in this mental health space where my tools that I’ve used for years weren’t working like they used to. And I just kept noticing, as I you know, even this, this conversation around patriarchy and visibility, this is a very new conversation that I’m having, because they didn’t have the words for this. And as I’ve been studying this, and reading about it, just really in the last year, it’s like, oh, my gosh, no wonder and so these are very new words that I’m using to describe something that I could always feel.


Angella Johnson  17:59

And so anyway, These tools, you know, I’ve done every modality and self development in person, like all the things and coaches and I’m not a beginner when it comes to investing in myself and doing my inner work. But there I was just like I’m noticing a whole lot of anger here that I don’t know what to do with and I’m not afraid of anger. I think anger can be an amazing catalyst and very alchemical. But what was happening?


Angella Johnson  18:24

It was I was resenting people. I was reacting to people. I was shutting down in light of conflict. And I was like, okay, something’s got a shift here. And a mentor of mine, she was talking about her weekly schedule. And she said, Yep, every Friday I meet with my therapist, and there was when she said that it was like, oh, oh, okay, thank you universe because I kept asking, like, what do I need to add here? I want to feel better. I want to heal from this. I want to be a contribution to society and not add to the drama and the divisiveness out there, but also stand up for social justice and up for these things. But I got to start with myself and do my inner work.


Angella Johnson  19:07

And so that’s that was the moment I was like, I need to get a therapist. And so that’s been a recently new experience for me. And it’s been revolutionary like so much healing has taken place in a short period of time breakthroughs. And what what is happening with that I feel like this is so to also answer your question of what do we do with this is


Angella Johnson  19:29

to have someone witness you and validate your lived experience is powerful. And that is what is happening. Like to really see what’s going on, like when you were talking about like watching poltergeists and just like, Whoa, like, wait, wait a second, like this? No, this isn’t like, this is what we’ve accepted as normal and there’s not like I don’t want this to be the normal.


Angella Johnson  19:56

And so to really be seen and heard and going I am choosing something different. Like, there’s nothing about this, it’s okay. And so you’ve got to be witnessed and in a conversation and really in a community where other people are saying, Yeah, you’re right, this is not okay. And what are we going to do about it? Rather than, oh, it’s fine, you’re fine. Look at all the privilege you have. Yes, there’s definitely a lot of privilege. And mixed with that. There’s also trauma, there’s also an acknowledgement of the systemic oppression that’s happening, that we are like, we’re seeing all these systems crumble. It’s really uncomfortable. It’s confronting. And I think it’s really great because that’s when something new can be born born.


Heather Clark  20:45

And I love this idea of choosing differently and that it requires a new community, a community or maybe the same community but a community that’s also choosing differently.


Angella Johnson  20:58



Heather Clark  21:00

Because otherwise, it’s my opinion, that’s introducing a great deal of struggle. You can change in place. But without bringing more people into your life that are at least thinking similarly, it’s very difficult.


Angella Johnson  21:13

Absolutely. And if you’re old community and you think about even if you have relationship with your parent, you know, your parents are probably part of this. And I say probably, maybe not for everybody, this system that is gaslighting of like, no, it’s fine. Like, that’s just how it was back then, like, that’s just how we’re raised. Like, that wasn’t their intention, like all the things that we do to undercut someone’s experience.


Angella Johnson  21:39

And so maybe it’s a different relationship of parents, maybe it’s different friends, maybe it’s different colleagues, but I absolutely agree with you, like a different community is required, because you’ve got to have something different reflected back to you. Otherwise, it’s uphill battle. And I don’t believe that life is about just you. Come here to struggle, and then you die. Thanks. I’m not signing up for that. Like, do something different. Well, let’s have some more ease, please.


Heather Clark  22:11

Exactly. And it’s not like, and I don’t hear you saying this is from a place of, well, you know, your parents should have known better. There’s no blame here. It’s like no, if it, at least from my perspective, what works for me is to operate from a place that people generally are doing the best that can be done in that moment. But to not have it reflected, well, you know, that’s the best I could do. That’s too bad instead of, you know, that’s the best I could do. And I am so sorry about the impact or I recognize the impact or, or, or whatever, just some acknowledgement,


Angella Johnson  22:46



Heather Clark  22:47

without necessarily then apportioning blame.


Angella Johnson  22:50

Mm hmm. Absolutely.


Heather Clark  22:54

Um, so I I really agree that therapy in the hands of a skilled therapist is really important there. If you’re not getting what you need from your therapist they are probably just not the person for you. That’s okay.


Angella Johnson  23:11

What brings up another piece, you know, with online marketing in the business world that you and I are both, you know, we’ve been in this world for a while, like one of the things that I’m just recently really recognizing is how many coaches have sold coaching packages to people who actually needed therapy. And I’m one of them. Like, I thought that I could really help people and now that I’m actually really looking and there’s this term that I’m just seeing more and more as trauma informed coaching. And excellent, it’s excellent. And I don’t know anything more about it, other than there are people who specialize in when you see these things, you know, showing up with your clients, then you can recognize that this is a place where trauma is coming from. And this is not just something you override with here. Here’s a mindset boost or just do the affirmations


Heather Clark  23:58



Angella Johnson  24:00

There’s possibly to hold someone in space in that space where you don’t know what’s going to come up for that person. You know, and so I think it’s really irresponsible for coaches to do this work without having the proper skill set to really help people through their trauma.


Heather Clark  24:22

Oh, oh, Angella. Yes. Got him right there with that. And I love this idea of trauma informed coaching because I have actually taught in services on trauma informed care for county social services departments. And it’s so essential because how, how can you help someone else without risking your own self without doing your own work, and coming at it from the perspective of everybody has value.


Heather Clark  24:55

Here’s trauma and some of the different ways that they show up instead of ugh! This person is always late to the call, like, Well, okay, what about noticing, oh, this person’s late to their call? I wonder what’s happening here and getting really curious.


Angella Johnson  25:10



Heather Clark  25:11

And what’s this mean to them? And what is this hurdle that they’re climbing over? And could we talk about that but in a, not in a headstrong? You know, I noticed that you’re often late your call, but in a well here’s some things I wonder if it’s going on in your life and it’s an opportunity to witness and actually allow them to show up in the fullness of them without making them wrong.


Angella Johnson  25:36

Amen. Everything you said times 1000.Yes.


Heather Clark  25:42

And none of the end if you wanted it bad enough, you’d be here on time. If you wanted it bad enough. You’d be like, oh my god.


Angella Johnson  25:50

Yeah. Well, you know, and things like that, that you know, we both can come from that. Well, I don’t know totally what your background is with with coaching and the online work. And online business world. But my own experience is there’s a lot of slime, there’s a lot of not so great stuff, you know, not only behind the scenes, but in how people are treated.


Angella Johnson  26:11

And so to say, just like if you wanted it bad enough, or if you really wanted to invest in this, then you would mortgage your house or you put it on a credit card. And so we’re not only looking at trauma here, but we’re also looking at and not acknowledging privilege. Like, no, this is not a money mindset issue. I just don’t want to pay you this money and I’m choosing not to, I’m empowered in my choice. So you can suck it,


Angella Johnson  26:38

you know, times like we’re met with that, like, you know, the whole overcoming objections and sales is often actually undermining people’s lived experiences. And one of the things I’ve been curious about, is it where’s that line of, of pushing back in a healthy and curious way, versus bulldozing people and gaslighting Someone’s choice, you know, rate balance? Because I don’t, I don’t my experience is that we haven’t been taught that, you know, sales, training, marketing training, traditional marketing and sales training is actually based in manipulation. And, you know, objections is really, really harmful.


Angella Johnson  27:20

You know, lessons can be very harmful and very abusive. But it’s like, I know I got the sale and it’s like, Yeah, but at what cost? You know, how did you have to exert your power over that person? to, quote, get the sale? Great, you hit a numbers goal, and is that person actually consciously and powerfully choosing to work with you?


Heather Clark  27:43

And how could they, you’ve sapped their sovereignty,


Heather Clark  27:46

And I gotta tell you, what’s fun. I actually had a conversation where it was a sales conversation. I was like, this might be a fit, and she shared what she had to offer. And I said, No, that’s not a fit for me. Thank you. And then let the manipulations begin. And she’s like, Is it about the money is about this is is like it’s about I don’t think that you can deliver the value. Oh, but I can and you’re just afraid and blah, blah, blah. And I stopped her and said, Look, you’re trying to manipulate me. I’m very curious why you think working with clients who you had to manipulate to come on board is a good fit for you.


Angella Johnson  27:46



Angella Johnson  28:28

God I love it!


Heather Clark  28:31

Done. And it was crickets and then she began to tap dance. I’m not manipulating you. Okay, great, then, what are you doing?


Angella Johnson  28:40

Then just shut up and listen to me?


Heather Clark  28:42

Yeah. And I’ve had sales conversations with people where I was offering something to the person and there’s sometimes you can tell. You know, in the old sales training, it’s never about money. Well, you know, sometimes it is sometimes They want to work with me. But they would have to make so many other choices in their life that that erodes their unshakable foundation. That doesn’t work.


Heather Clark  29:11

Like, what if we just honored them? And that’s, and I don’t know, right or wrong, but I decided a long time ago, I teach that heavy and light tool that I know you and I both use.


Angella Johnson  29:22



Heather Clark  29:23

So that they can tune into what works for them. And then that way, we both know if they choose to work with me, it’s fully aligned. Oh my god, it’s joy bringing.


Angella Johnson  29:33



Heather Clark  29:34

but but none of this manipulation crap, like what are you really afraid of? And I wonder, I think at least part of it, anyway, is coming from the patriarchal model, the whole, you know, Take Thou; you do this. And if I can use power over you, not true power, but that forceful power, I can erode your sovereignty and get you Do what I want. Which, blech.


Angella Johnson  30:04

you know, here’s the other thing about this and I’ve been thinking about this I’m so happy to be having this conversation because I’ve had a lot of these conversations in my head Oh my god, this is so fun. Um, so let’s let’s go back to the you know, traditional sales marketing, you know, so the person in this case like I’m so happy that you said that and you’re like, no, the answer is just no like, I’m not like this isn’t a fit.


Angella Johnson  30:26

Like you’re very clear and what’s yes for you like hallelujah. Um, but let’s let’s look at this on a deeper energetic level, because if we actually approach sales and marketing from a place of trust, I trust that I will receive everything I require to be taken care of. So if that energy is present, as as, as the service providers, is there a need to manipulate people to buy?


Angella Johnson  30:57

My my answer to that is No. And so, it’s ironic to me hilarious actually, that so many sales and marketing coaches are saying, well, this is how you overcome sales. And you’ve got to have an abundance mindset. And like But wait, if you’re teaching manipulation, you do not have an abundance mindset, you are steeped in scarcity. You are steeped in this energy of I’ve got to get mine before the person goes out and spends our money for someone else. Like if you really trust it, that the perfect people who are aligned to work with you the universe is bringing you two together that would you actually need to have those manipulative sales tactics?


Angella Johnson  31:40

And then I go back to there’s this this sometimes fine line and I feel like this is a practice of when we push, I don’t even like the word pushback when we get curious about someone’s resistance or hesitancy and we’re genuinely curious and asking them questions, but our objective is to help them powerfully choose Rather than the objective of, I have to overcome their objections, because deep down, if I don’t get this sale, then, you know, I’m basically forced being, you know, scarcity. And that’s where my energy is steeped in. Like, we’ve we’ve got to change the energy dynamic. And so it’s just so fascinating to me that you know, it’s like these mindset coaches and money coaches truly believed in abundance. Is there an actual need for teaching these kind of manipulative tactics? Like, let’s really just look at the elephant in the room here.


Heather Clark  32:38

It’s kind of like I think of a cocktail party. And if someone has like shrimp on a skewer is anyone needing to manipulate people into taking that? I don’t think so. Like it’s got its own inherent value. you’ve presented it, I can see it, I want it or I don’t want it I’m done.


Angella Johnson  32:54

Telling the person like If a person’s like I actually have a shellfish allergy. No, you know, that’s just a mindset issue. Have you had shellfish Are you sure you know? Like, what is it really that blob? Like, give me your epi pen? It’ll be fine. Like, oh my god, like come on


Heather Clark  33:10

And I think this goes back to what you’re sharing about the unhealed trauma, because people with unhealed trauma are going to behave in this manner. And I don’t want to be like, Alright, if you’re doing this, you’re just wrong. It’s more like this is an invitation to examine, is it possible that you’ve got some unhealed trauma and the clients that you’re attracting to you your your trauma markers, just line up?


Angella Johnson  33:33

Right, that I love it? It’s I think it’s called trauma bonding. Oh, yeah.


Heather Clark  33:38

You know,


Angella Johnson  33:38

oh, my God, I’m so in love with this person. No, actually, my wounds, my dramas are just similar to them. And we can marry each other and actually, you know, trauma bond, but I think that unhealed trauma too, on the on the side of the consumer. And so if we are used to being gaslighted if we’re used to being told, well, this is what’s best for you do as I say like I know more than you do. Because I make more money or I have the lifestyle or the like, I have the expertise or the whatever the thing is,


Angella Johnson  34:05

it’s so easy for people to sit in those conversations, whether it’s an event or a webinar, or any sort of sales or marketing arena, social media platforms, and go, gosh, you know, maybe they know something that I don’t. And so we keep giving our power away. And I really believe that it’s coming from decades, lifetimes, I do believe in past lives, of being gaslighted of being invalidated in our own experiences.


Angella Johnson  34:32

And so it goes on both sides like that unhealed trauma is both on the side of the consumer and also on the side of the service provider. And so just as you were talking about, like, I mean, five years ago, if you were having that sales conversation, would you have said that? And I don’t know if the answer is yes or no, I’m just genuinely curious but like, you know, work


Heather Clark  34:53

the which part because it was about five years ago when I was like, you know, I really feel like you’re manipulating me into this and I’m not okay with now. But in my own sales conversation when I’m inviting people to work with me, I decided a long time ago, it feels really icky, both to be on the giving and receiving end of the manipulation.


Heather Clark  35:15

And I cannot have a commitment to empowering people and then behave in a manner that does not empower them. Like that does not work for me, like all kinds of stuff in my life breaks. And I’m like, that doesn’t work. So it’s all about empowerment. And what I’ve realized is I also needed to be okay with having fewer sales, because the scare tactics, at least in the past, worked to get the sale.


Angella Johnson  35:43

Mm hmm.


Heather Clark  35:43

They don’t, in my opinion, work to get the result. And what I think and I’m playing with this, but what I wonder if people because again, I believe everybody has trauma, you just do it. When people come to work with me, they want to become unshakable. This typically means something is shaking them. There’s big stuff going on.


Heather Clark  36:09

And it can be very difficult to jump in and work with someone that doesn’t have pat answers. And here’s your, you know, your five point system and you’ll come out with the end of it at the end of it with X, Y, and Z. And if you don’t, it’s because you didn’t work that hard. Like that has appeal for people.


Angella Johnson  36:28



Heather Clark  36:29

And that’s just not how I roll and I’ve just needed to be okay with that. But it’s been really interesting because I’m both a provider and a consumer. So what I realized is based on my own traumas, which we’re all working on it’s almost never Are you like I don’t know I flip the switch traumas just gone. What


Angella Johnson  36:53

let me know if anyone listening. Please let us know. We’ve arrived


Heather Clark  36:59

Yeah. It’s like, in my own experience, you get more degrees of freedom around the thing that was traumatizing. And part of that has been me recognizing from the consumer standpoint. If there is any kind of a pressure to the sale, I’m a No. Because I already know what I’m going to get from this person and that isn’t going to work for me.


Heather Clark  37:18

You know, if they say they’re going to do something, and then don’t do it–done. Like you created your own thing that you were going to do. I didn’t make this up for you, and you’re not doing it. No, I’m out. And I share this because I think people have a sense of what they’re willing to put up with and what they aren’t. So if you say one thing and you do another, like, there ain’t nothing about that that’s going to work for me. But for other people, they’re like, yeah, that’s annoying, and they’re able to cope with it. I just can’t. So it’s really, from my perspective, one way of shifting this is just recognizing, yeah, that doesn’t work for me.


Angella Johnson  37:58

Mm hmm.


Heather Clark  37:59

And Then having the courage to acknowledge, hey, this doesn’t work for me. And then hopefully the courage to then act on that, which those are different steps.


Angella Johnson  38:11

Well, I think you said, you know, a couple things that I just want to highlight because it’s, you know, if you’re using the manipulation to get the sale is like that doesn’t equal results. In fact, it actually is against results. And dilutes results. And I think that’s a really important thing, which leads me back to like, if we really trusted that the universe is always it’s always working out for us. Like there’s always somebody like to really, and to me, this goes so much deeper than Oh, mindset, I’m just going to positive my thing, you know, positive think my way through this. The deeply embodied energetic presence that I feel like we were always deepening, we’re always expanding. So that’s, that’s one piece and then I lost my train of thought I was going to mention something else.


Heather Clark  38:59

It’ll come to us and minute because you will. We’ll circle back to that because what I’d like to add is, even if you can’t, there’s lots of train derailments over here with trains of thought. Even if you can’t come at it from that perspective of, I totally trust the universe has my back. That is one way of putting it. What if it was just a question? What would I do here? If I did totally trust it. Whether you do or not–what would I do here if I did?


Angella Johnson  39:31

The willingness to trust it? Because, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know a person that trust themselves 10 out of 10


Heather Clark  39:39



Angella Johnson  39:41

We are a work in progress where the masterpiece that is always being created. Like we’re always deepening this and so I love that question. Like, if I did trust myself, what would I choose here? And am I at least willing to trust myself trust the universe, trust that people show up. Trust that people the right people say yes, like, Am I at least willing to trust it? And that’s how we build the practice.


Angella Johnson  40:06

Because you know, when we think about like, the way we were raised, I mean, thinking about all these systems, we’re not taught to trust we’re taught to take, we’re taught to compete, we’re taught to do you work really hard to get ahead. None of those things are based on a foundation with roots of trust. And some credit and be compassionate toward ourselves of Wow, like I can acknowledge that I haven’t really been set up to succeed.


Angella Johnson  40:39

And so when we look back at like, wow, all the things we’ve overcome all the things we have created, it’s really damn impressive, like humanity from that lens is really freaking amazing. So to give ourselves more credit, to acknowledge what we have created, and to just the willingness to be in that relationship with trust, can start changing those things.


Angella Johnson  41:02

And we can also start uncovering like, oh, wow, I, I don’t have these, these, these techniques that I’ve been taught which actually the train that left the station earlier that’s what I wanted to talk about is, is you know, the ways that we’ve been taught all the manipulation all you know all the things to just actually recognize that there is another way but we don’t see it modeled. And so it’s a little bit uncomfortable, just us uncomfortable that feels like a very simple word to use when we’re like, I hope this works


Angella Johnson  41:33

because we can see the results of like, when you have the false you know, scarcity limiters, and the countdown clocks that aren’t really real, or all the things in you know, sales and marketing. It’s like, the argument is, well, it works and we’re like, Yeah, but at what cost? And so you said something earlier, like, I may not get as many sales and I’m okay with that. And so how do we actually I don’t want I don’t love the word compensate, but how do we counteract That. So and I use this principle.


Angella Johnson  42:01

So Kelly Diels, I just want to do a shout out because this is where I’m learning a lot of these things as well. And she is feminist marketer, feminist copywriter. And, and she was talking about the same thing of just like we have, we can say that those tactics work and we can see the proof, we can see the results of like, you know, you put, you have this conversion rate if you do this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so she was talking about so she said, So, I am growing my email list. I am being consistently present on social media, so that I can create a community rather than just create a sales funnel. And so I think that’s a really important thing for us to look at is we can acknowledge, okay, those tactics work, and are they sustainable? Are they creating the future in the world that I want to see? The answer is no, we have to look at that age until more and more people catch up with Oh, this is how business can be done.


Heather Clark  43:03

and are willing to do business that way.


Heather Clark  43:06

Yes, yes. Yes.


Heather Clark  43:10

Because the other thing is there I believe that people have you’ve got your conscious will and you’ve got your unconscious will. And consciously nobody wants to be manipulated. That’s crazy. That’s crazy talk. But unconsciously, they kind of want to be manipulated because it’s it feels normal, it goes along with their life patterns. It feels very comfortable. So it feels like it’s somehow right.


Heather Clark  43:37

And it is, at least my personal experience has been, it’s difficult to get people to see both that it’s not necessarily okay to do that. Like if that’s what you’re actively choosing. Fine. I’m not going to choose that but whatever. But here’s a lens to see this through. This is what’s happening. Does It Really Work For you? but it’s harder to bridge over to. And this is what it’s like to really live authentically. And to not put up with the Bs, and how to do that without losing all of your relationships or, you know, having to quit your job or anything like that.


Heather Clark  44:18

And I know there’s a lot of people that are like, Yeah, I don’t believe that’s possible. And I think this goes to what you were sharing about because it’s not modeled, like, I a couple years ago was like, You know what? Maybe it was just last year, I’m going to look for strong female role models in popular culture. So for me, that’s movies and TV. Oh my god, it was awful. It was just awful. I can’t remember the name of the show. But they basically she’s this powerful lawyer. She’s a fixer and she’s having an affair with the President. We’re supposed to look at her like she’s a strong role model. I’m like your life is a frickin disaster.


Angella Johnson  45:06



Heather Clark  45:06

you’re creating one trauma after another. And everybody on Google’s like, Oh my god, she’s such a strong woman. I was like, No, not really. Not to take away her strength, but like, why would she put up with all of those shenanigans? If she weren’t living into the patriarchy Come on people.


Angella Johnson  45:29



Heather Clark  45:34

So it’s, it’s, um, I’m really curious what your thoughts are, what is there to do to shift that from a cultural place? From a personal space really from anywhere?


Angella Johnson  45:48

Such a great question. And you know, when we think about changing culture, we think about changing the systems. I think a lot of the solutions that we’ve seen attempted are about changing the solutions from the outside in. And there are definitely you know, and I, I hesitate to bring up politics because it’s such a shit show right now.


Heather Clark  46:08



Angella Johnson  46:09

You know, ideally, we would love to vote for people who were creating systemic changes with policies and laws and things like that. And I just don’t have a whole lot of faith in any of that right now. And so I’ve been asking myself this question of like, how do I actually create change here? And not just for myself, but it has to start with myself. And so I think the first step is really acknowledging that there’s something happening here.


Angella Johnson  46:34

Like there’s a system that we are trying to operate in and we’re not even trying to we are operating in that it’s not just broken like it was designed this way. And so not dismantle the system. And so by acknowledging, oh, this is what’s happening by stop gaslighting ourselves and gaslighting each other. That’s the first step like really starting to look at, oh my goodness, this is really what’s going on.


Angella Johnson  47:01

And so how do I create in a system that is actually not designed for me? Like, I’m not designed, it’s not like I’m not meant to thrive in this system and this system meaning commerce, you know, politics, like the world, you know, all the things. And so I think that’s the first step. The other step, and I, you know, and I’m not the expert on this, like, I’m just honestly, living this journey as we speak. And so these are the things I’ve noticed for myself. So I just want to preface that like, there are experts who this is their whole body of work of how to create culture and how to change culture, and how to build in equity and justice in our system. So I’m not pretending to be an expert. I’m learning from experts right now, but my own experience is just acknowledging that piece first.


Angella Johnson  47:48

You know, and it was reminds me of years ago, like when I started noticing in the online marketing world and coaching world of this manipulation that was happening and I remember going to my mentor at the time, like I this doesn’t work What you’re teaching like I’m really opposed to this and I have a conversation I can work recollect like three different conversations with three different mentors and my experience was they do not give a shit.


Heather Clark  48:11



Angella Johnson  48:13

give a shit like you are harming people. This is abusive behavior, how can you not care? And and I’ve come to realize like their entire life is built on this house of cards. And if they take one part out there, their house of cards is going to crumble. And so I thought, well, this has a lot of like fighting energy, I have to fight against something. And so what do I want to do about this? And that’s when I consciously made the choice of, Okay, I want to empower myself as a consumer and I want to have this conversation with other consumers because it’s that whole supply and demand, like the more consumers we’re waking up to, I’m not going to be manipulated.


Angella Johnson  48:50

And when they start buying differently, and then they start selling differently. That’s how we start creating this undercurrent of change. And this is specifically around marketing sales, online business, you know, things like that. And so I think that same principle applies to the bigger systemic issues that we’re talking about as well. So I just very quickly saw, like, my energy is going to be wasted. And I’m going to be burned out resentful, and really pissed off. I keep trying to talk to, but the quote experts who really don’t give a shit, in my experience. And so I’ve got to talk to people who are waking up to the fact of, yes, there’s something off here. Let’s name it. let’s acknowledge what’s really happening. And let’s change the way we’re doing business.


Angella Johnson  49:37

And what’s really cool. And I was actually thinking about it this morning. So, of course, I felt like the universe gave me this little seed, because I didn’t know that this is where the conversation is going to go today. But I started thinking about how I’m spending a lot more time on Instagram, rather than Facebook and I’m following a lot of incredible people on Instagram who are talking about this. We’re talking about authentic ways of doing business. I’m not seeing as much of that on Facebook. And maybe it’s just because you know, who I’m following.


Angella Johnson  50:06

The reason I mentioned that is there are more people having this conversation, there are more people doing business differently. And and I would say, you know, five years ago, when I started talking about this, I felt very alone in this conversation very alone. And so it is becoming more normal. And and that’s also what we were talking about before. Like, we have to create a new community of shared values. And so I’m saying that there are people who are doing business differently. There are people who are actively changing the way we’re selling and marketing. And so this does exist, and I’m really excited to see more and more of this.


Heather Clark  50:45

I love it. And I think there’s more people consuming it as well. A lot of people are like, yeah, I’m not doing that. Maybe they don’t have the words for why they don’t like it. But they don’t.


Angella Johnson  50:56



Heather Clark  50:57

and I know for myself, like I was all ready to buy some online dog training and for the new puppy, and she had a clearly artificial deadline. She has offered this program for years. And it was I had four days to make a decision about it.


Angella Johnson  51:20



Heather Clark  51:20

well, I hadn’t even opened any of those emails until that day. And I was like, and now I have till midnight tonight. You know what? No, I don’t care how great you’re program is. So distasteful for me because it was just like, What is this, like? 2010? What are we doing here? And I understand why she’s doing it. And it’s not that particular business model isn’t wrong. But I don’t think that that Well, I certainly that business model won’t work for me because it doesn’t align with me. But I think that’s not what people are really– sensing, yearning for, what they really want.


Heather Clark  52:01

Like, what if you had something that you could consume use buy whatever that truly supported you completely and truly honored you that doesn’t have you hopping on the drama triangle? Because when you share with me those experts that, like, this is how you do it, and they don’t want to hear it, if you want to do it a different way. And it’s my opinion, in part because they want to be the hero on the drama triangle which requires victims and the victims get to sometimes make them villains, even though they kind of really are. And if you shatter that world, you’re shattering their construct for making money.


Angella Johnson  52:46

Yeah. And people who are operating business that way, they have a lot weighing on the way they make money. They have overhead they have team and that’s you know, that’s commerce. That’s business and I get that there’s a lot to risk to actually do marketing and sales differently. And my hope is that more and more people will really wake up to Yeah, this actually doesn’t create. It’s not generative, you know, it’s coming at a high cost.


Angella Johnson  53:16

And I want to actually just circle back because I love this drama triangle. And I’ve heard about the drama triangle, gosh, maybe 15 years ago. But I’m just wondering for people who don’t know what you’re talking about, if you can describe that, because I think it’s really important for people to see, oh, this is where I’m operating. When I’m a consumer, or when I’m the service provider, or even in our you know, any relationship.


Heather Clark  53:40

Oh, I’d love to I go on about this at length. In fact, on here on the podcast, we’ve got episodes, part one and two of Heather and ManDee talk about the drama triangle where we go in depth here, but in a short, encapsulated, it’s this idea came out in the 60s, and it’s this idea that most if not all, people are operating from hero, villain or victim. Hero slash rescuer. And so it’s a triangle where the flat parts at the top, hero and villain are at the top and victim is at the bottom point.


Heather Clark  54:20

And the unconscious game is for everybody to be the victim, because that’s when you get the most benefit. That’s when you get the most sympathy the most help you get people coming to your rescue, you get to make people wrong. And you get to blame people. Because when you do that, you don’t have number one, you don’t have to take responsibility. And number two, that actually reduces your stress when you blame other people, at least in the very short term. It compounds stress in the long term and erodes your unshakable foundation. But on the short term. If you can get around and have just a really righteous bitch session, you feel better.


Heather Clark  54:58

But the problem is it gets you stuck there, and really you’re the creator of your own experience. So you can flip it to what I call the freedom triangle, where instead of the victim, you’re now you’re the Creator. And you’ve got instead of rescuers or heroes, you’ve got support. And instead of villains, you’ve got teachers, people who are showing you where your shadow is and showing you where your next opportunity is.


Heather Clark  55:26

And it’s just it’s a more powerful way of being. And it requires some courage to switch into it. But I what happens for a lot of my clients is what happened for me when I started considering Well, okay, where are we at here on the drama triangle? Oh, I noticed that I want to rush and rescue this person. Like, because then I’ll feel better about me and have to deal with my own crap. Um, and a lot of times, even though the person is appreciative it’s undermining their sovereignty and, and it’s diminishing their own power.


Heather Clark  56:08

And that’s not cool that in the big picture actually doesn’t help me at all. So, what I tried to do, I’m not 100% on this, I don’t think anybody’s 100% on anything, but the attempt is Oh, I noticed that I want to rescue. Okay, let me stop. What’s this about? First let me ask, like, I have identified that possibly you could use some support. Is that something you would like? Yeah. Is that true? And if not, okay, great. And then I got to, you know, keep my opinions on what they could be doing to myself because they didn’t ask they don’t need me.


Angella Johnson  56:45

Right. Yeah.


Heather Clark  56:47

Or in a particular woe is me. I’m, like the guy at Target who was willing to be more confrontational. He was also willing to be the bigger victim. And again, I couldn’t figure out how to win without playing that game. So I won by walking away and choosing a new checkout. So that that’s basically that was a little longer than you’d ask for. But that’s kind of the drama triangle. And a lot of the people in the spaces that we’re in a lot of the coaches, a lot of the sales and marketing people. We would call them gurus, people coming from that do this kind of place. It’s my opinion that the vast majority are firmly on the drama triangle and want that to continue. Yeah.


Angella Johnson  57:40

Yeah. And I wish you know, that we had a different word than guru because it can be you know, guru and when you look at this, the indigenous definition like it’s a very sacred thing. And so oftentimes we use this you know, as the guru and it can be, you know, it can feel a little conflicting there. So if anyone’s hearing that like, Well, what do you mean? I just want to do acknowledge that like that the guru and we’re talking about in this context and the marketing and sales is that person is all knowing person they know more than you do. And so we idolize them, we put them on a pedestal, we give them all of our power along with our dollars usually. And, and it has this this negative connotation when that may not be the actual definition of the word guru.


Heather Clark  58:27

Right. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Like, I don’t want to be appropriative and I appreciate that.


Angella Johnson  58:34

Well, I love that you shared that because I you know, when we really look at trust like it to me, it takes us back to that conversation, like if really trusted, are willing to trust ourselves. Like, would we need to be the victim? Would we need to blame somebody? Would we need to save anybody?


Angella Johnson  58:52

You know, because I too, oh my gosh, I so look at that, that tendency and I think for women, a lot of us have been taught like our place is when we help people To be helpful, and so often times we’re helping people, but they never asked for it. And we’re disempowering people. Like I recognize when I first actually learned about the drama triangle years ago, like it was a really confrontational for me to go, holy crap. I have been the rescuer for so long I don’t even recognize what my life looks like if I’m not rescuing someone, I’ve made it my job to rescue people.


Angella Johnson  59:28

Like that’s how I have value. So my whole identity was wrapped up in rescuing people and I really like it was not a pleasant place, but I knew it was necessary to go where else do I have value if I’m not rescuing people, and that conversation led me to more powerfully creating consciously creating my life. And so if you can recognize yourself in one of those spots that you know what Heather talked about, it’s it’s okay to be uncomfortable. Oh, no. I can’t believe I’ve been doing this, like, you’ll, you’re gonna be okay, you will find your identity, it will be more amazing than ever. And you won’t be wrapped up in all this drama.


Heather Clark  1:00:10

I love it. I love it. And I really like what you’re saying about trust and trusting yourself. And I think that probably that, because I think it’s rampant that women tend to not trust themselves, or they kind of do but kind of not and not consistently, you know, it’s this weird thing. I think maybe that is part of not just a natural outgrowth of how we’re raised, but I think that’s patriarchy as designed.


Angella Johnson  1:00:38

Totally. I mean, you think about health care, politics, religion, there’s always a man telling you what’s true.


Heather Clark  1:00:48

Mm hmm.


Angella Johnson  1:00:49

So if you don’t have body parts, then who are you to actually know your truth?


Heather Clark  1:00:53

And can you endure the condescension if you don’t agree with them? And it’s kind of a question I like is: who benefits for me not trusting myself here?


Angella Johnson  1:01:07



Heather Clark  1:01:09

Like, oh the system or like we were talking about earlier, right? The person that would benefit is this. The self appointed Rockstar coach that wants me to pay beaucoup bucks. If I didn’t trust myself, I would just pay them. Okay. Like at the car dealership, I’m not really sure what to do here who benefits from them? For me not trusting myself as them because then they can manipulate me into buying not knowing who I am and like, Well, no, you can’t adequately explain it so I’m not doing anything.


Angella Johnson  1:01:41

Right. You know, and this is not about like, if so I’m just picturing you know, in the future when someone’s listening to this like, Oh, so never hire a coach is do it on your own like, Oh goodness, no. This is about receiving support and receiving guidance and receiving support and guidance is very different than someone just giving you the formula like, oh, here’s what you do. Here are the six steps to do bla bla bla bla bla. Like that’s not coaching, that’s not guidance that’s not supportive. It’s actually creating a very codependent relationship. So you never have to think for yourself, which is the perfect thing to keep selling you shit.


Heather Clark  1:02:21

Yeah, great coaches like you and I have both also experienced great coaches, great coaches, help you really hear yourself. Find yourself what works for me. They give you different suggestions. It’s kind of like their light helping to light your path, but you’re leading it yourself. It’s just really gorgeous. And yes, and thanks for calling that out. Because Yeah, I would be heartbroken if people walked away. I was like, well, I should never hire a coach. No, no.


Angella Johnson  1:02:48

That without this other side.


Heather Clark  1:02:51

Yes, exactly. I love it. So, Angella, tell me what’s your origin story? How did you come to be doing all this great work.


Angella Johnson  1:02:58

Oh, gosh. So they’re really going to three pivotal points in my life. So in 2008, I got fired, the legal thing is I got laid off, but that’s how they could fire me. And that was right as the you know, the housing market was crashing, it was not a great time. So that was really what got me started. And it was what was beautiful about that is my vision at the time was I wanted to run transformation of women’s conferences. I’ve always had this. This vision, this concept of I know that when women are empowered, we change lives, we change systems, and we change the world. And we’ve got to start in our own backyard. We’ve got to start with ourselves.


Angella Johnson  1:03:36

And so that was always this, like, Oh, I wonder how I could do that. which didn’t make any sense. You know, because I was in corporate marketing. I was, you know, I did personal development stuff on the side. I’ve read a lot of books, but it was like, Where is this idea coming from? Like, this doesn’t make any sense. So I when I got fired, I took that as the sign from the universe is like, Oh, I think I should pursue this. So I went down that path that hosted my first event. In 2009, had a big name, you know, keynote speaker, over 200 attendees, and I lost $40,000.


Angella Johnson  1:04:08

So that was my initiation into an entrepreneur. I was like, oh, wow, this did not turn out the way I was told when I thought you know, follow your, you know, follow your passion and the money will follow wherever that statement was. No, follow your passion, have a money plan. Make sure you know your numbers are a couple of components that I forgot not even forgot, because I didn’t know. But that was my initiation. And so after that, it was really desperate to get some help. And I hired my first big name, expensive coach. I remember my payments were around, you know, $850 a month, which was more than I’d ever invested other than my mortgage.


Angella Johnson  1:04:49

And I was just like, I can’t believe people are doing this and at the time Hello, I was you know, paying back 40 Grand i was making no money, yet I committed to this payment of nine hundred dollars a month. And it worked. Like I learned how to sell on market. And then that’s when I also was introduced to this really slimy side of marketing and coaching. And I didn’t know any better because I was like, Well, I guess this is how it’s done.


Angella Johnson  1:05:15

And at the time, I was so tired of being broke, and I was so tired of being worried about money. I was just like, just tell me what to do. And I will do it. And so I reached that coveted six figures in about 10 months. And I was like, Oh, I’m the poster child for the six figure business and then that’s when it started going downhill. And so my next pivotal moment I was in 2009. So 2012 I hit this wall, you know, it was climbing that that ladder on that bandwagon of making more money and more people at my events and more faster, bigger, badder, you know all the things and I hit the wall and found myself depressed. My health was getting my attention. My marriage sucked and I stayed in bed for three days going up


Angella Johnson  1:05:59

Like, how did I get here? Like, and it didn’t make sense of why I was depressed because it’s like, Hello, I’m living the life, right? But I had totally sacrificed myself. I totally gave my power away. And I put my intuition, my soulfulness. I separated myself from that. And I listened to mentors who said nobody wants to hear about sole purpose or intuition for people how to make money and it was like, okay, you know, and Hello, like when you’re paying someone $15,000 or whatever the amount was, like, there’s some legitimacy of like, maybe they know something more than what I know.


Angella Johnson  1:06:36

And I want to be coachable. Like Good god, I want to be the the good little girl be coachable. But that’s when everything crashed. So that was the next pivotal moment. And that’s when I came out of the spiritual closet, as I say, and and I realized I’m deeply intuitive. I want to do business differently. And that’s when I when you were saying introduced me the very beginning.


Angella Johnson  1:06:56

That’s when I burned my business down. And so that process allowed me to really reach the third pivotal moment, which was when I essentially downloaded or inspired, however you want to use, you know, whatever you want to say there being to the marketing matrix. And the question I kept asking myself was, how do I help people make consistent money starting with myself, and do so in a way that feels good and genuine? How do I simplify this? How do I help my clients create consistent results? Like these were the questions I was asking. And I just knew, it was like, there’s something here.


Angella Johnson  1:07:33

And so that’s when I developed this framework. And it’s not just you know, creating one page easy marketing plans. It’s about actively using our intuition asking expansive questions like the question you asked earlier, Heather, if I trusted myself here, what would I choose? That’s an example of what I call an expansive question. And so using those questions, using our intuition, to guide our decisions in business, and that’s what changed everything like I can even notice my energy when I was talking about Like the events and then hiring the, you know, crappy coaches and I, like I just felt honestly anks and anxiety in my body and my whole body went like, ah, like that I started talking about there, there is a different way to do this. And so that’s, that’s my original origin story and that’s how I got here.


Angella Johnson  1:08:20

So that’s yeah 2009 I’ve been at this game for over a decade, I’ve seen a lot and done a lot, done some things that that I wish I hadn’t and I didn’t know any better. And you know, selling things in a high sold from stage at my events or things like that, or have these experiences of like, this feels so and I didn’t have the languaging I just thought it was fear. I just thought it was nerves. And that’s what my coaches said, like, Oh, it’s just fear. You’re just pushing through fear. Good job. Keep going. Now that I have the language for it, and I have the I know the visceral difference, it was like my soul going, not this. Don’t like this isn’t the way And I didn’t know another way until he did. And so also part of that process is giving myself some grace for whatever it took to get here, and I’m really happy with where I’m at now.


Heather Clark  1:09:14

That’s beautiful. I love this story of the navigation towards completely trusting yourself and learning tools along the way, so that you can deepen that trust. Mm hmm. I love it. And as you were sharing about how your coaches like, no, people don’t want to hear about soul purpose. I think there’s a lot of people listening to this episode that are like, what almost everybody wants to hear about. So. But I’d heard that before too. And at the time, I was like, oh, okay, great. Similar to you. But now I feel like I would ask, show me that data. Like, why do you think that’s not true? Because here’s what I think that is true. And let’s really discover and then if they just collapse or make you wrong. Okay, well, you don’t know. Or if they’re like, Well, you know, based on this research basically with these types of people Oh, okay, great, thank you. But nobody has that data they just


Angella Johnson  1:10:11

right, right? Well, and I think with things like that, we have to ask ourselves the question of what kind of client do I want to work with? Like, do I want to work with a client? Where if I say, energy, or intuition, or what does your body, say? or What would you do if you trusted yourself and they look at me like, I’m insane. That’s not an ideal client, like, that’s their client for somebody else.


Angella Johnson  1:10:33

And it goes back to this, I think, this kind of golden thread throughout this conversation of like, trusting that your people are there ready to receive you and you’re ready to receive them like you don’t have to dilute or change who you are to attract those people.


Angella Johnson  1:10:51

And then on the flip side of that, when we talk about messaging, and I think this is kind of the angle that a lot of my coaches were at and not justifying them at all. I thought, I can See where what they were saying there was some truth there of like, if you just have this soft, fluffy message, some people will definitely resonate with that. But we’ve got to make it practical. We’ve got to bring it into, like, how does this really help somebody? Like how does deepening your intuition? really help people? How does being unshakable really help people? How does discovering your soul purpose really help people?


Angella Johnson  1:11:24

You know, and there are some people who are asking themselves, gosh, I wish I knew what my purpose was, I wish I knew that I could be confident no matter what, like there’s some people asking that. But for most of us, how that shows up in our lives is well, my relationship is really hard right now. And I wish I knew why. I wish I could do something about this. I’m not making consistent money in my business. And I don’t know how much longer I can deal with this stress. You know, so it often will manifest itself in other ways. And we may not make that connection of, Oh, it’s because I’m building a business. It’s so out of alignment with who I am. Oh, but we just keep hanging Onto like, what’s the next marketing strategy? Or where’s the next free webinar? I can learn about, you know, webinars, whatever the thing is, and it’s like we’ve got to really help people see how our work translates into tangible results without fluff without the hype without the bullshit.


Heather Clark  1:12:21

Oh, yes. My goodness. Yes. So completely, completely resonate with that. This is beautiful. I’m also curious, can you tell me what does it mean to you to be unshakable? Hmm.


Angella Johnson  1:12:41

That’s such an interesting question. Because I feel like I’ve been very shakable the last couple of years. But for me, it’s the willingness to have courage. The willingness to have courage even in the moments where It’s like, I don’t know if I really have the courage but I’m willing. And that willingness to have courage means I’m willing to get back up. I’m willing to get curious. I’m willing to give myself grace. I’m willing to love myself through the really hard times. Like that willingness takes me through.


Angella Johnson  1:13:18

And it’s one of those experiences is like when you look in the rearview mirror, and you’re like, Wow, he travelled a long way. That’s really cool. It’s that whole thing like, wow, I’m actually a lot more unshakable than I’ve realized and that I’ve ever given myself credit for, and I can I get to hear some emotion come up for me, because I’ve recently just been exploring this. with humanity right now. It just feels so divisive. And there’s just so much angst and trauma and harm, you know, we’re just like, they’re harming each other with our traumas and projections. And so I think about unshakeable and I think about what humanity has endured for centuries.


Angella Johnson  1:13:58

I think about People who’ve experienced some really hardship in their life, and they’re willing to love again, they’re willing to be gentle with themselves. That is what’s restoring my faith in humanity. like to know that we have overcome really hard things and we’re in the process of overcoming really hard things. Like to me unshakable, it doesn’t look pretty. In fact, it can look really tumultuous and really scary. But we keep finding that little even like micro moment to keep stepping into courage and keep the keep giving it a shot.


Angella Johnson  1:14:38

That was a long answer to your question,


Heather Clark  1:14:41

which I appreciate deeply. That was a great answer. I love it and this willingness to courage because it’s, I agree that’s an essential component. And I understand that you completely get it unshakable isn’t like okay, I have now crossed the finish line. checked that box. I am unshakable and done It’s, it’s more of a, it’s a way of operating in a way of being that really helps you feel good about things and returns your power to you and all that. And I just, I just love it and this willingness to courage, willingness to grace, the willingness. Beautiful. So, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t covered today?


Angella Johnson  1:15:28

Hmm, I don’t think so. We’ve covered some really, really big deep topics and just a lot of gratitude for you, Heather for the hub, holding the space for these conversations, for listeners for for listening and allowing this message to go into your heart and soul wherever, wherever you could use it, and to carry this, this hope this message, this permission to be sovereign, this permission to trust yourself, into your life. So that’s I think, that’s all I have.


Heather Clark  1:16:01

Beautiful. Where can we find you?


Angella Johnson  1:16:04

If you go to it’s Angella with two L’s then you’ll find all of my information there.


Heather Clark  1:16:10

Beautiful. This, as always has been such a delight. Thank you so much. Thank you.


Heather Clark  1:16:21

Thank you so much for listening to Unshakable Being. You’ll find more information in the episode shownotes at Subscribe to the podcast and share with your friends. May you be unshakable, unstoppable, and vibrant again. Until next time.