Meltdowns & Surge Capacity on Heather & ManDee Talk About…

In this episode, Heather & ManDee talk about meltdowns & surge capacity.

Specifically, how meltdowns may be a normal response when your surge capacity–your capacity to run on ‘survival mode’–is depleted, especially during the pandemic and uncertain political times.

Heather & ManDee both share their own personal experience with meltdowns, and ways to move through them that leave you stronger.


Article: What is surge capacity? The stress-busting tactic that’s being wiped out by the pandemic

episode transcription

Heather Clark  00:02

Welcome to Unshakable Being: inspiration and practical tools for purpose led helpers, guides and leaders like you to shift out of stress, stop going in circles, and get what you want in your life, body and business. I am Dr. Heather Clark, and I’ll be your host.


Heather Clark  00:19

Hello, and welcome to the show. Today is another installment of Heather and ManDee talk about. So we have ManDee today on the podcast. Hello, ManDee.


ManDee Nogle  00:29

Hello, Heather.


Heather Clark  00:31

And what we’ve settled on for our topic today, because there’s so much there’s just so much in the world for us to talk about. What if your meltdown is a normal reaction?


ManDee Nogle  00:47

Yes, yes.


Heather Clark  00:51

So I know that we have noticed, and maybe you as the listener have noticed as well. But there’s a whole lot of people losing it right now. We are what are we six and a half months or so into the pandemic proper? Since the declaration. And yeah, we read an excellent article in that essentially talked about surge capacity. So we all have this capacity to deal with an emergency in a survival situation. And that’s our surge capacity. And we’re still using it.


ManDee Nogle  01:38

To the best of our abilities,


Heather Clark  01:40

Of our abilities, which is unbelievably freakin stressful.


ManDee Nogle  01:45



Heather Clark  01:46

And certainly surviving. And using that much energy to simply exist in the world with all of the additional stresses. It’s a recipe for burnout number one, but number two, one of the reactions that a lot of us are having are meltdowns.


Heather Clark  02:06

So I know I’m not immune. And I don’t think anybody’s immune it. And as I was pondering this, I just was, you know, what if what if this is a perfectly legitimate response to an unbelievably stressful situation?


ManDee Nogle  02:26

Yes. Yes. Indeed.


Heather Clark  02:34

So what are you noticing out in the world, ManDee, with regarding meltdowns,


ManDee Nogle  02:39

So you know, several things, and it’s things that have kind of crept up on me over the past couple of weeks, I’ve noticed. As you know, I, I still do not go into stores, unless I absolutely have to, and they have to have a mask requirement to go into the store. So I almost never do that.


ManDee Nogle  03:01

So I, I, I still feel like that I am away from like, the general public a lot. So I think that I wasn’t really noticing until like the last week or two. But yeah, like difficulties, placing online orders, difficulties, talking to customer service representatives, difficult difficulties getting things done and realizing that like, people are being like really super short, or things like, communication gets crossed, and then everyone’s just like, mad, or, and when I say, everyone, I’m also including me in ways that normally that I have the ability to take a breath or two, and move forward and kind of get the situation on track. It feels sometimes like I don’t always have that ability. Right now. And it’s super distressful.


Heather Clark  04:02

Yeah, I know, I have run into that quite a bit as well, because I’m, I’m going into the stores, but again, the stores with the masks and all of that, and, and it’s real hard to get real basic things done.


ManDee Nogle  04:16



Heather Clark  04:17

things that used to be very simple, things that used to be very straightforward, are virtually impossible now. And it’s, it’s not necessarily anybody’s fault.


ManDee Nogle  04:31



Heather Clark  04:33

But everybody is just slightly over their capacity to cope.


ManDee Nogle  04:38

Mm hmm.


ManDee Nogle  04:40

Yeah. And individually. I know I am, you know, at capacity. And I have to remember, like, it’s harder for me to remember. Oh, everyone is super stressed out. This isn’t just a thing that’s happening to me. This is like this is a Collective situation.


Heather Clark  05:04

And I don’t know about you, but what I’ve noticed is that there’s a lot that I’m still pretty chill about, like, okay, that’s fine. Like, everybody can just take a breath. It’s fine. But it’s been very interesting to notice where my edges are with this.


ManDee Nogle  05:20

Yes. Yes.


Heather Clark  05:23

Like stuff that you would expect problems with. It’s like, Okay, well, that was annoying. All right, whatever. And you just move on, like that whole way of being unshakeable. All right, like new plan.


Heather Clark  05:37

And then I had a spot where I’m like, oh, perhaps there’s some introspective work to be done here. But in a place that you don’t really expect, like, yeah, the pantry shelves aren’t arranged just so and I am having a whole lot of feelings about that. Yes, which is fascinating. And I know that I have a lot of clients running into things like that, too.


ManDee Nogle  06:07

Hmm. And,


Heather Clark  06:09

and then there was a couple of people who had I hate to call it a meltdown, because it sounds very judgmental. And it sounds like that some sort of a problem, but maybe an extreme stress.


ManDee Nogle  06:23



Heather Clark  06:24

that they weren’t immediately bouncing back from I don’t know how else, but how else would you describe what we’ve been calling meltdowns?


ManDee Nogle  06:32

You know, um, for me, the experience feels like, like, I’m spinning, it feels like I’m bouncing off walls. And I can’t stop. It feels like I’ve lost my equilibrium. And I can’t right myself. When I’m in those spaces.


Heather Clark  06:57

I like, I like how you put that, because I could really relate to that the whole, okay, I’ve lost my equilibrium. What am I going to do here? And then I don’t know about you, but I like I go through my whole inventory. We were talking about this briefly before we got on to record the podcast. It’s like, Alright, what are my sources of support?


ManDee Nogle  07:21



Heather Clark  07:21

And I feel like I’m running through everything. But I have a sneaking suspicion that in the midst of the stress, perhaps I am not thinking of everything. And maybe I am not seeing the possibilities.


ManDee Nogle  07:38

Hmm. Tell more.


Heather Clark  07:42

Um, well, and an easy thing to talk about, because it’s happened long enough ago that I’ve completely processed it. But I shared before that when I was working, the job that I got burned out in, or when the burnout really blossomed for me. I didn’t believe that I’d be able to find a different job. And there was no basis of evidence for that. I’d never have had problems before getting a job. I hadn’t even put out a resume. I hadn’t even gotten a rejection. And at the time, there were still a few places paying sign on bonuses. So there was no factual basis. For my Yeah, you did believe that won’t won’t matter. Nobody will even hire me. I’ll never get out of here. That felt real.


ManDee Nogle  08:31



Heather Clark  08:32

And it, it wasn’t until I’d recovered and had some time and looked back and was like, What? That wasn’t so.


Heather Clark  08:42

So that’s why I believe that even though in this moment, when I’m going through whatever was stressful at the time, I’m like, Okay, what are my places for support? What are my tools? What’s this? What’s that? And I believe I’m catching everything. I’m just leaving open the possibility that when your brain’s on stress, you don’t see everything.


ManDee Nogle  09:05

Yes, yes, I think that is, that is a really good point. Because you’re right, when your brain is on stress. You know, I talk about this a lot with people I work with, of like you, you don’t see opportunities. It’s it’s like there’s blinders on and, and to you, those opportunities do not exist.


ManDee Nogle  09:26

And, you know, when we talk about like, in trauma theory, that’s one of the biggest issues is the idea that we continue to attract more of the same experience really is about that our brains kind of shut off. Because we’re so focused on the problem in front of us that we can’t see anything outside of it. And I think that that’s a good point here and especially like when you’re talking about resources, like have we tapped all of our resources for support are we using them you know, effectively, etc, etc.


Heather Clark  10:03

Yeah. And are we reaching out? Because I know sometimes I’m like, Well, I would talk to so and so. But I hate to do that to them.


Heather Clark  10:13

Yeah, yes.


Heather Clark  10:15

Like, well, look at me knowing everything about how everybody’s going to feel without giving the opportunity. I’ve heard someone say it like, Oh, so I’m jumping into their world and making a decision for them. How handy. Instead of reaching out, but doing it in a way where it’s crystal clear that it’s perfectly fine for them to say, no, it’s perfectly fine for them to say, I just don’t have the capacity or bandwidth. And I would be like, Cool. Thank you. Thank you for telling me. Like, now I can trust that it’s safe to reach out and you won’t stress yourself.


ManDee Nogle  10:56



Heather Clark  10:57

But but the reaching, it’s important for it to happen.


ManDee Nogle  11:03

It is and you know, it’s something you know, something we talked about before we got on was being afraid of asking for support. Because I think some of us sometimes feel like we’re being needy. Some of us are the strong one in our community, or at least we perceive, or we or people have told us you are the one I go to or whatever. And then it without even realizing that we do it. Sometimes we get a little bit of an ego built up or a little bit of a veneer that’s like, Oh, I’m the strong one. And we don’t even know we’re doing it. And then we’re like, oh, but well can the strong one reach out for help. You know, and so that’s an that was an interesting thing that I was kind of working out in my head earlier this week. You know, not feeling like it was okay to ask.


Heather Clark  11:58

Right? Because what would that mean about me? If I need support, but that means you’re a human on the planet?


ManDee Nogle  12:05

That’s right. Right.


Heather Clark  12:11

It ain’t that hard. It just feels hard. And then there’s a meme going around social media. The the just, I just felt so seen, but um, extreme independence is a trauma reaction.


ManDee Nogle  12:29

Oh, my gosh, yes. That meme? Yes, let’s discuss. Because I saw it. And I was like, that just hit me in my soul. What’s happening?


ManDee Nogle  12:43



Heather Clark  12:45

absolutely. And I think that that that is at least playing a role. Because I know that one of the themes with clients here within the last couple of weeks has been, they aren’t using the support. For private clients, I have this, you know, the, the email, text and phone support, like, let’s use it, if you’re having a problem, if there’s an issue. Let’s not wait till our next scheduled appointment. Let’s resolve it. Because I built the business like that. And I find that not only does it work for me, it really works for clients, because it gives them the support that they require.


Heather Clark  13:27

And it’s okay if you don’t use it. And it’s been real curious, this theme of


ManDee Nogle  13:34



Heather Clark  13:35

well, yeah, there was this major disaster. And you know, what, I wanted to wait and talk with you. That’s like, yes, a five day wait, why did–with love Why?


ManDee Nogle  13:44



Heather Clark  13:47

Yeah, and it’s been, it’s been interesting, because there’s been sort of a gamut of responses to that. But I think the underlying issues are, maybe a desire to resolve it themselves, which is great.


ManDee Nogle  14:00

Mm hmm.


Heather Clark  14:01

But perhaps use the support structures that you have in place.


ManDee Nogle  14:06



ManDee Nogle  14:10

Well, and you know, and enter, okay. And some interesting thoughts here, too, I was thinking about, you know, when you’re in a workplace environment, or just a friendship circle, or something like that, something happens. I know, when I, you know, I’m in around coworkers and things like that. It’s easy to get into, you know, kind of a gripe mode, you know, we’re gonna gripe about what’s going on in the day or in the week or what’s going on out in the world outside, you know, and, and, in a way that is a way to bond with others. Um, it’s a very natural human way of being,


ManDee Nogle  14:47

but what then happens is, we all know is that that creates, that our only way of connecting is through this kind of negativity. And so then the bonding process actually now has become stressful, because it’s just reinforcing, you know, negative thinking. And on top of it, it makes me think about like, if we never expand outside of that, then our viewpoint is that we are all having the same struggle. Well, if I am struggling with work, or if I am struggling with what I’m hearing in the news, or if I’m struggling with the pandemic, well, everyone’s having the same struggle. So if I call my friend, then I am placing an extra burden on them, because now I’ve added to their struggle.


ManDee Nogle  15:32

But what you were just saying, which was a really good point is that for a lot of us, that’s not necessarily true. And that’s that, that kind of a more emotional way of thinking about, you know, many hands make light work, I may be having some some struggle about what’s going on in the world, you are having a struggle about, you know, online shopping, those are two different struggles. We can we can support each other because we aren’t adding to our loads. But if we’re not thinking about it in that way, it just it does. It feels like we’re burdening each other. And so then we don’t ask for help.


Heather Clark  16:13

Well, that’s really, I love that. And it’s depriving everyone of an opportunity.


ManDee Nogle  16:19



Heather Clark  16:21

Because I know I’ve had some people share their struggles with me. And I have found it very helpful. Like, Oh,


ManDee Nogle  16:28



Heather Clark  16:29

that that like, little part of me, that’s like, I’m not crazy. Yes, I’m not the only one with this thank goodness. Like, my coach was sharing something with me earlier this week. And I was like, I just feel so seen. And just feel so relieved. That this stuff is not just happening to me.


ManDee Nogle  16:51

Yes, yes.


Heather Clark  16:53

Things that you and I have talked about. And it’s like, I don’t have exactly that. But here’s the slightly different thing. And it like,


ManDee Nogle  17:00



Heather Clark  17:00

just to be witnessed whether or not the person wants to resolve it. But that’s completely different than the just bitching about it. And it’s creating bonds, at least when done consciously, that aren’t stressful. Or if


ManDee Nogle  17:19

yes, yes


Heather Clark  17:20

to be stressful, then all the parties involved can say, yeah, this is, this isn’t working for me right now. Like this is stressful, and then asking for what they need. Or saying, I don’t know what I need, but I know that this isn’t working great. Yay. Everybody wins.


ManDee Nogle  17:39

Exactly. And that is huge, especially when you have–Do you have religious relationships where you have have had the practice prior to, you know, a worldwide emergency? You know, can I, you know, what are our boundaries? And I can say no, I can say no, how about, I talk to you next week about this, or, you know,


ManDee Nogle  18:04

my brother called one time to tell me about something. And that was a little bit too gore inducing. I was like, you know, on a normal day, I probably be able to handle that, because I’ve worked in health care, it’s fine. Today is not that day. And it was easy to say that in him go, Oh, cool. I’ll skip past that. And kind of my main point here with this. And so yeah, that is like super liberating. But the thing is, is that we can all start practicing, setting those boundaries and conversations and asking for what we need. And it’s fascinating, you know, when you start doing it yourself, in my experience, how quickly at least, you know, people around you who, who you know, care about others  start doing it also.


Heather Clark  19:03

Oh, yeah, I’ve had someone say, it’s given me new words and a new language to use. Like, I didn’t know that that’s what I needed. Great. And there’s some people that you know, don’t, don’t cotton well to that, and because what I’m at least intending to say is this doesn’t work for me right now.


ManDee Nogle  19:26



Heather Clark  19:28

And they don’t always hear like that like, Well, okay. And after a couple of times, I’m like, Okay, well, I’m wondering if perhaps we aren’t a great fit. Okay, that’s fine. Yes, like, I see that you’d like me to hop right on the drama triangle with you, and I’m not doing it. So…enjoy.


ManDee Nogle  19:50



ManDee Nogle  19:52

And you know, and then going back to that surge protector, that surge capacity, that is just it was such an interesting article. An interesting way to think about things is that you know, you do have this limited, there’s a limit to, you know, how much we can take in and how much trauma and stress and whatever we can have. And that it is perfectly okay. Especially in times like this to say, No, or to just say, I am not able to right now. And that nothing is wrong.


Heather Clark  20:31



ManDee Nogle  20:31

when doing that,


Heather Clark  20:33

and that’s fine. And if one of your boundaries is Oh, I’m, I’m not following this. I’m not watching this news. I’m not watching this debate. Like, that’s okay. That’s true. That’s perfectly fine. If you don’t have the bandwidth for it, don’t Oh, my goodness.


ManDee Nogle  20:48

Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And to also, you know, I did have a, a moment of lost equilibrium, shall we say, in the Walmart pickup line.


ManDee Nogle  21:08

Um, I was very upset about a situation that I thought was unfair. And I thought was not working properly. And finally, after asking to speak to several managers, it was finally explained to me why things were happening the way they were happening. And then I was able to go, oh, okay, this is a systems problem, I can get back on board here.


ManDee Nogle  21:40

Okay, and then go, you know, what, I have been a complete jerk to everybody. And I’m going to take a moment to apologize and acknowledge that I was a complete jerk. And I, I do not want to act that way. And I am sorry, that I have been a trauma donor, I guess to you. It is not my intention to do that to people, especially who are also working really stressful, dangerous jobs right now. And so, you know, it.


ManDee Nogle  22:13

That’s the thing, too, is like acknowledging, you know, to ourselves when these things are happening, and when we do kind of lose it. And then it it was okay. It was okay. And apologies were accepted. And everyone, you know, we got back on board and things worked out. And I still feel like I can go back to that pickup line.


Heather Clark  22:38

Which is, which is really fantastic.


ManDee Nogle  22:41

Yeah, yeah. And so there’s There is power, in a sense, not not a force, as you know, I’ve talked about but a power, a personal power and being able to acknowledge when we’re wrong, and to ask for forgiveness.


ManDee Nogle  22:58

And moving on, because I think sometimes there’s also this kind of like, in our society, like, I know, I feel this pressure that I can never be wrong. There are going to be repercussions if I am wrong, whether it’s I’m factually wrong, I have inadvertently offended somebody, whether on the internet or in real life, or that I have really misread a situation and did not respond appropriately.


ManDee Nogle  23:28

And because there seems to be kind of this, this idea that like, well, we’ll have you do, if you slip up, you’re done, you’re out. And being able to say, Oh, I’m human, too, I did screw up. And I’m going to acknowledge it and ask for forgiveness and ask for help and allows other people to do that also. So and I think that’s another way that we can kind of like start to, you know, kind of almost like rebuild our own humanity and rebuild our society or society right now is really stretched in that way. I think.


Heather Clark  24:04

I agree. I especially love that your interaction went in a way that you were able to see Oh, I’m sorry. And you’re able to apologize and and that was all great. I think that’s wonderful. That isn’t what happened to me at at the pet store. Going to the pet store, trying to pick up some flea prevention


Heather Clark  24:35

and have have Alfie, the puppy with me. And I’m just I like to park in about the same spot just so that I do not have to give any thought to where the car is.


Heather Clark  24:49

you know, it’s, it’s a luxury and I like to like I just parked down here and like Okay, so that was my plan and this person was in an SUV. Driving around the parking lot but in kind of an erratic and weird way, and she’d pulled in to a to a parking space at least twice, and I thought, Okay, well, she settled. And then she came roaring out of the parking space right at me because I was going to turn in so I stopped like, Okay. And then she acted like she wanted out like, Okay, well, let me I think I’m kind of blocking the way. Let me get out of the way.


ManDee Nogle  24:49



Heather Clark  25:26

And then she drove straight at me and backed up and I was like, life is too short for this. Just went to and parked in a different spot. Whatever. We’re all going through our stuff. Get it parked, get Alfie out start to walk in the store. She comes running up to me, yelling, and she had been yelling, but I didn’t. It didn’t dawn on me that she was yelling at me. Yes, yes. I was the only person other person in the parking lot, but I haven’t done anything. What?


ManDee Nogle  25:57



Heather Clark  25:57

It was fascinating. All the things that she had projected on to me. And I was just like, Okay. I because I was 100% clear. This didn’t have anything to do with me. All that stuff going on for her right now has nothing to do with me. That I’m aware of anyway.


ManDee Nogle  26:24

Right? Yeah, yeah.


Heather Clark  26:26

And I’m like, okay, and I just went on into the store, because it became very clear to me that any engagement, and it could have gone very badly, she would have continued to project and then it would have gotten argumentative. And then there’s a risk that my dander will get up and I like, I just don’t need this. I’m like, okay, it’s just been to the store. And I’m like, What was that about? Because it’s always a big surprise to me, because it’s been a long time, since stuff like this happened more than once in a blue moon.


ManDee Nogle  27:01



Heather Clark  27:02

And so you know, I’m a very introspective person. I went home and I was, like, What is happening here? What am I doing? am I bringing this on? Did I, I like reexamined my actions. And the only action I could have thought that would have had zero interaction is to not have pulled into the parking lot. Well, that doesn’t work. I like what is there, and I’ve ever been in a weird energy Have I done…


Heather Clark  27:26

and what I decided is that it’s truly an opportunity for me to just declare, No, that’s okay. I’m just, I’m just gonna stay in this calm unshakable place. This is who I am. And you’re allowed to be however you are.


ManDee Nogle  27:43



Heather Clark  27:44

that’s at least where I’ve landed with it. But I don’t know. Other opinions are available. Let’s–I don’t know, man.


Heather Clark  27:55

I just like, what is happening.


ManDee Nogle  27:58



ManDee Nogle  27:59

Well, and you know, you know, when you you tell, you’ve told that told me that that story? Because I believe you and I talked about it the day that that happened? Yeah.


Heather Clark  28:09

Today, you got the clean version.


ManDee Nogle  28:10



ManDee Nogle  28:14

Yeah, the the for listeners version. and. And, you know, one of the things that kept coming to me over and over is, you know, at the beginning of this pandemic, we were all kind of given some hope that this would just last three months, because I think, if I remember correctly in China, you know, China, remember completely shut down there like nobody in or out of the of the cities that have the infection. And you know, I knew of people who like, you know, friends of friends who lived in China, who are like, yeah, we don’t leave our house, we don’t leave our community if you do, like, there’s all kinds of stuff you have to do to get back in. And so super, super strict.


ManDee Nogle  29:00

And because of that, in those places, you know, yeah, two months, three months, and you’ll move kind of move back to normal. So that was kind of like, the idea that that’s what would happen. That is not what has happened. And I remember thinking, Okay, I in two or three months sounds like a long time. I was not entertaining anybody’s notion that this was going to go on in August. I was like, nope, we’re talking about that. No. I’m eternally hopeful. And remembering, you know, everyone’s like, you can’t buy flour because everyone’s baking bread.


ManDee Nogle  29:40

And my whole neighborhood. I was like, you know, in my neighborhood, you could almost think that nobody lived there because it’s so quiet all the time. Well, there’s all this like pounding and, and chainsaws going on and all this stuff because everyone’s working on their house. Because they’ve got time. You know, all of these things. Going and I think there was that kind of like we’re stressed, but we’re hopeful we’re hopeful that it’s gonna be over soon, we’re going to put our energy into house projects and learning new skills and, you know, whatever. Yeah, the kids are home from school. But you know, that’s just for six more weeks, we can do this.


ManDee Nogle  30:17

And that was that, you know, that initial, we took that initial surge energy and put it somewhere. And now here we are six and a half weeks later, or six and a half months later. Like, there’s no surge left. And so yeah, people for whatever reason, this lady is mad in the parking lot. And my guess would be off, like, you know, she, she’s, she put all of her energy on the sourdough bread baking, and that is over, there’s nothing left to manage a parking lot. And because, you know, I, and I felt like, you know, that I was doing pretty good. In fact, I very, in a very cocky fashion, told someone two and a half weeks ago, I am feeling great. I think this is fine. And then the universe was like, oh, cool story.


Heather Clark  31:11

Give you another opportunity to declare that Yes, it truly is.


ManDee Nogle  31:18

And so that has been an interesting piece of, um, yeah, you know, you only have have so much energy for that, that, that surge. And the surge is not intended to last for six months. Um, you know, I know in in some places I have worked in the past, this was a conversation we always had is that the expectation in some places is that you will have a perfect day, like, everything has to fall into place, and you will get everything done perfectly, but that has that’s dependent upon other things happening that you have no control over, to have this perfect day, and that everyone should be working at a breakneck speed all of the time.


ManDee Nogle  32:01

Because there are times that you can rush and hurry and get extra done or whatever. And in some parts of our culture that has been been taken to believe we should be operating like that all the time, we should always be down to the wire all the time, and humans are not built to operate that way long term. And so our culture is already asking a lot of us to do that. And on top of that, um, now we have this going on, and then we end so we surged again, it was like, I think for a lot of us, it was our last bit of energy. And we’re still being asked to do it now. And people just don’t have it.


Heather Clark  32:48

Completely agree. And basically, this is also a description of what it’s like to work retail. Not even in a pandemic. This is what it’s like to work in healthcare, because I remember, we have just enough people to run this department safely. As long as everybody’s on their game. But then, you know, one person


ManDee Nogle  33:09



Heather Clark  33:10

is sick somebody is a little distracted, somebody’s tired, and it all goes to hell.


ManDee Nogle  33:15



Heather Clark  33:17

Well, just a little close to the bone. And then, you know, one extra little stress, whereas we’re in a great big giant stress


ManDee Nogle  33:27



ManDee Nogle  33:28

And the stress doesn’t stop. And, you know, it was predicted that this was going to get worse, especially in our political climate, that it was predicted that as we got closer to the election, stress was going to get worse. Things were going to happen that would…not be what was expected, shall we say? And and, again, so we have already, we were already tapped out a lot of us were already tapped out before any of this happened. Then a pandemic happened. And now we have this just additional question of like, our how our whole society is going to move forward just in general. And, and so yeah, it’s it. It’s hard to do, there’s just not anything left.


Heather Clark  34:24

Well, and with increasing divisiveness and a lot more bullying, there’s like


ManDee Nogle  34:31



Heather Clark  34:32

like people have been given carte blanche to bully and like no. And then the–well this is whole other can of worms–but then like, subtle racism, I have become aware that I have a few people in my Facebook feed who I think maybe are racist, like wow


Heather Clark  34:54



ManDee Nogle  34:56



Heather Clark  34:58



Heather Clark  35:00

So that’s interesting.


ManDee Nogle  35:03



Heather Clark  35:06

Um, but but not to switch it to that particular topic, but just to be like, wow, like, how do I even have conversations at this point? And there’s, you know, some people that conversations aren’t required and others are going to be at holiday gatherings.


ManDee Nogle  35:22



Heather Clark  35:22

So, so there it is.


ManDee Nogle  35:25

Right. Yeah. Well, and we have we’ve gotten to a place where, you know, before it was like, Well, you know, could you end a friendship over opinions? And, you know, well, what’s an opinion, as the meme says, Does pineapple go on pizza? That’s an opinion, somebody’s right to exist is not.


Heather Clark  35:45



ManDee Nogle  35:49

And yeah, I have had the same thing to you know, my Facebook is a pretty full place, I typically engage with people from a lot of different walks of life, and, and, you know, different kinds of people and always felt like, you know, it’s okay, we can have these differences of opinion. But yes, I have had the same like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. You’re racist. And either I didn’t know it, because I didn’t really realize that some things were racist until recently. Or, you kept this quiet until now. And But no, you are no longer welcome. Like this…No. And so that is, that’s another piece of stress of like, having to make decisions of like, I’m sorry. That is unacceptable. And that you can’t be in my life with that going on. Yeah.


Heather Clark  36:44

Like, that’s, that’s not okay.


ManDee Nogle  36:47



Heather Clark  36:49

But with all of this going on, it’s like, wow. So meltdowns, they make sense to me. And what if that’s perfectly normal?


ManDee Nogle  36:58

Yeah. I think it is, I think it is.


Heather Clark  37:03

And I know that. Like, if I’ve had a meltdown, usually that gets me back on track quicker. Like, maybe that’s just the process to go through, instead of trying to avoid the meltdown. And I just need to take a little time, which might be true. But there’s a real risk for that bypassing.


ManDee Nogle  37:22



Heather Clark  37:23

like trying to talk myself out of being mad. No, no, I’m mad. Yeah,t let’s just be mad. I don’t necessarily need to act out in it. But like, moving through it. The fastest path is through.


ManDee Nogle  37:38

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And and with that, knowing that, you know, one of the things that I’ve done in my life recently, which you and I have talked about, is, how much interaction Am I having with others? Um, and what kinds of interactions you know, I have, I’ve got a,


ManDee Nogle  38:00

there’s a couple of people in my life, who I have realized, like, it’s not that I dislike them, I don’t dislike them. But at this point, I am not able to manage some behaviors that have to be managed, when I’m interacting with them. I am not doing that. And so I am not available. Like I’ve noticed my circle has gotten a lot smaller, because I just am not able to manage things. And I am okay with that.


Heather Clark  38:36

Yeah, what if–What if it isn’t something that requires management? What if managing it is actually a problem? What if it’s like,


ManDee Nogle  38:45



Heather Clark  38:45

this isn’t acceptable. And for me to manage it is me just trying to ignore your unacceptable behavior. No.


ManDee Nogle  38:53



Heather Clark  38:53

but “you can’t say that”…oh, but you can.


ManDee Nogle  38:59



Heather Clark  39:00

And even if you don’t want to, that’s fine. But where is your


ManDee Nogle  39:03

It’s your life


Heather Clark  39:04

You personally, me personally, anybody listening: where in your life. Are you trying to manage something?


ManDee Nogle  39:10



Heather Clark  39:10

Where you putting up with it? Where are you trying to make it work? When maybe, maybe the best thing is just consider letting it fail. And if you feel like you can’t, okay. Yeah, this is an invitation to really consider what if that’s what you’re being asked to do?


ManDee Nogle  39:28

Yeah. Well, and you know, in the woo circles, as, as we like to talk about, sometimes some of the thought is, is that the planet is having a major shift, an energetic shift to your higher vibration. Some people like to say or higher dimension. And part of that is, is that you can’t keep doing lower dimension stuff if you’re moving to a higher dimension, because those things are not congruent.


Heather Clark  39:56



ManDee Nogle  39:57

And so the planet in this frame of reference, the planet is letting go of some things. And since we are having experiences around that. But if we think about it is that, you know, we’re all co creators is what, what then are we being asked to let go of that that before, like you just said before we were able to manage it.


ManDee Nogle  40:26

But maybe that wasn’t something that we needed to manage, it was our responsibility to manage or we were managing so somebody else didn’t have to do their own work, somebody else didn’t have to deal with their stuff, because we were busy managing it.


ManDee Nogle  40:39

And that can no longer happen if we’re going to be moving into higher ways of being, shall we say? And so I think that’s an interesting way of looking at, at things as well is what are we being asked to let go of, that we have, we, it’s now no longer an asking to let go of it’s we have to, because it just, there’s not other options.


Heather Clark  41:09

Well, and especially if your goal, or even something you’d kind of like to have happen is to be more unshakable as you go. Like, those times of feeling like you lose your equilibrium, more infrequent, and much shorter when they happen. Eventually, hopefully, like never happened. But you know, we’re human, so whatever. But part of that is like, wait a minute, where am I picking up the slack for someone else? When that’s not even my responsibility?


ManDee Nogle  41:38



Heather Clark  41:39

Oh, but they’ll feel bad. Okay. Where are you depriving them of that gift?


ManDee Nogle  41:46



Heather Clark  41:47

Because they don’t like it. They’ll change their behavior. It’s okay. And if they don’t, that’s fine. You get to make a new choice. And it sounds like I’m being a jerk. But I’m not. I promise you. It’s a path to freedom. It is. And you don’t have to be mean about it. Just be like, wow, that’s, that’s not for me. Cool.


ManDee Nogle  42:07

Right. Exactly.


Heather Clark  42:10

Yeah. Then not take it on. But I like what one of the things you said before we hit record was you cannot heal a trauma actively happening to you.


ManDee Nogle  42:22

Mm hmm. Yeah.


Heather Clark  42:25

And again, the short, quick and dirty version of a trauma is a stress that exceeds your ability to cope in that moment. So it could be some little t traumas, it could be some big T traumas. But what if we’re in the middle of one?


ManDee Nogle  42:42



Heather Clark  42:43

So whatever reaction you’re having, and even if you’re looking around, like, I don’t know, this has been great. For me. That’s also awesome. There’s nothing wrong with any of it. What if it’s all okay.


ManDee Nogle  42:56

Yeah. You know, piggybacking off of that I was thinking of, when I first started learning about, you know, trauma responses and how your body responds. And, you know, there’s some net, there’s some natural processes that your body should be allowed to go through, because it is how you keep a trauma from kind of getting stuck in your brain or your body. I was just learning about all of this.


ManDee Nogle  43:19

And as during that time period, I was exposed to biohazard. And it was one of those things, I was at work. And I could not find my direct supervisor, so I had to find another supervisor above her. And you know, normally what you want to hear when when you tell someone, hey, this thing happened, that they go, Oh, that’s nothing to worry about. And instead, her eyes got really big. And when we need to go out, talk to the director, and you’re like, Oh, no, no.


ManDee Nogle  43:52

And the corporate nurse is contacted, you know, all of this stuff is happening. And so all these people are kind of swarming around me, like trying to figure out, you know, how much a danger I have been put in.


ManDee Nogle  44:05

And I realized I just started shaking, just started shaking. And so I just sat down, I allowed them to do whatever. And I sat and shook. I because I knew what was happening. I knew my body was processing, you know, this danger. And, and that’s all I remember for about, you know, 5 to 10 minutes, and then I stopped shaking, and then I was calmer. And then everyone kind of turns to me and says, the corporate nurse says you’re fine, that what happened to you that actually is not something that needs to be worried about, you’re okay. We’ll write an incident report, but you’re, you’re fine.


ManDee Nogle  44:45

And so I didn’t worry about it again. Everything was okay because it was able it was able to be processed, but at the same time it resolved. And I think in this moment, you know, I had an experience over the weekend that I told you about, I had a super, super bad headache and all this. I was I was a stress response.


ManDee Nogle  45:08

But the thing is, is that the things that I am stressed about have not resolved. They have not resolved for six months plus–they are not going to resolve for a while. And so I am not going to have that same, you know, trauma resolution that I had in that imminent, this thing happened now. Now, you know, we responded, and now it’s over. Because it’s not over. That made me think about how, yeah, you can only do so much and you can’t, you can’t resolve it when the situation isn’t resolved. So that’s a place to give ourselves some slack too.


Heather Clark  45:51

Yeah, absolutely. And increasing our tolerance for uncertainty and all those other good things, but just letting it happen at whatever pace or at least supporting it while it’s happening. If you’re like, yeah, this is great. But I need this to happen faster. Fantastic. There’s some support to find for that.


ManDee Nogle  46:10



Heather Clark  46:11

it could be a therapist, it could be a coach, it could be a good friend. It could be you know, a meditation tool. It could be brain training, there’s all sorts of things it could be.


ManDee Nogle  46:20



Heather Clark  46:21

but if you’d like to fast track it, what are some ways to support that for yourself? But yeah, you know, but don’t make the process wrong. Like, okay, what if this is fine?


ManDee Nogle  46:32

Yeah, exactly. Because then what you’re doing is you’re adding now another trauma to yourself, like, you’re just, you know, judging it, like I’m having a meltdown in a in the parking lot. And it’s not just that, you know, I can’t get my groceries to my car the way I expected.


ManDee Nogle  46:49

Now, on top of that, I’m judging myself, and I’m shaming myself. And I’m and I’m all that you’re adding to it. And you’re right, when we can just allow it. Yeah, the situation itself is not going to resolve but we’re not going to have, you know, lasting issues the way we would if we didn’t if we didn’t allow ourselves to, you know, have this experience.


Heather Clark  47:16

Beautiful, beautifully stated.


ManDee Nogle  47:19

Thank you.


Heather Clark  47:20

Do you have anything else you would like to add tonight?


ManDee Nogle  47:23

I do not. I thought this was a great discussion about, you know, stuff we’re all kind of dealing with right now.


Heather Clark  47:31

I think so too. Yeah. Like if you’re out there and listening to this. You’re not alone.


ManDee Nogle  47:37

exactly. You’re not alone.


Heather Clark  47:42

Well, beautiful. Thank you so much.


ManDee Nogle  47:45

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.


Heather Clark  47:49

Thank you so much for listening to Unshakable Being. You’ll find more information in the episode show notes at Subscribe to the podcast and share with your friends. May you be unshakable, unstoppable and vibrant again. Until next time.