How to Come Home to Yourself with Margot Burns

How do you come home to yourself? Join Margot Burns and I as we discuss how to understand yourself in a way that makes your life better on a daily basis by unlocking a compassion for yourself and by knowing your underlying motivations and instincts.

In this episode we explore:

  • How to come home to yourself
  • What an Enneagram actually is and how it can help you
  • The value of understanding what makes you tick
  • Why self-attention is not selfish
  • Unlocking compassion and patience for yourself
  • The repercussions of Gray Area drinking
  • How connection with yourself strengthens your connection with others
  • Learning what’s right about you
  • How to control your reactivity & show up for yourself
  • Being grounded with who you are in your essence
  • The power of having a community that understands you

Featured Guest

Margot Burns

Margot Burns Coaching

Learning the Enneagram in 2006 was so transformative in helping me align with my core values, I became a certified trainer. It enhanced every aspect of being a two-time entrepreneur and the work I’ve done over my 30 year career as a rehabilitation counselor, expert witness, and professional coach. In 2020, I added Gray Area Drinking coaching to my practice and it’s been a game changer. My passion is creating a safe space for women who are ready to embody their inner wisdom, change long-standing patterns, and live with aligned integrity every day.


The Map to You – the program that helps you come home to yourself, and come home to your heart. Offered jointly with Dr. Heather Clark and Margot Burns

Enneagram Empowerment Principle and 1:1 Gray Area Drinking Coaching, 30 or 60 day program

episode transcription

Heather Clark  00:01

Welcome to unshakable being the podcast with inspiration and practical tools for purpose led leaders like you to relieve stress, build resilience, and unlock vitality in your life, body and business. I am Dr. Heather Clark, and I’ll be your host.


Heather Clark  00:18

Hello, and welcome to the show. Today we have on Margot burns, learning the enneagram in 2006 was so transformative and helping her align with her core values, she became a certified trainer. And it enhanced every aspect of being a two time entrepreneur and the work she’s done over a 30 year career as a rehabilitation counselor, expert witness and professional coach. Margo, welcome to the show.


Margot Burns  00:44

Thank you so much.


Heather Clark  00:46

So excited to have you on because we have talked before the show about several different things. And it’s just a matter of it’s also delicious. Where do we start? So where we’d like to start today is so tell us since COVID? How are you helping people truly find connection?


Margot Burns  01:05

Oh, it’s such an important question. And, um, you know, what I find is so natural for us to see connection and think about connection as outside of ourselves. But my whole coaching practice and way of working with women is to come back and connect with yourself. It’s this is where the juices, this is where it’s all at. And so when you connect with yourself and truly understand what’s going on here, then you can understand what you need out there, you know, so I help women come home to themselves, and connect here before they go out and connect in the world and to others.


Heather Clark  01:49

That is just delightful. I love it. Because that’s another take on what I talk about a lot is put yourself first ruthlessly and relentlessly. And this is such a great way of doing it is really hooking into yourself first.


Margot Burns  02:04

Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s it’s my biggest theme. And I in fact it you know, we talked about this earlier that my my main message to women is before you take on the world better take on yourself, right. And we all do so much and give away so much of ourselves all the time. It’s so natural for us. And you know, I had to learn and I help women learn that self attention is not selfish. It’s necessary. Like you said, we have to be relentless about it and retrain ourselves and retrain those in our lives that Oh, no, I’m going to take care of myself, and then I am going to be better to take care of you and change the world. You know?


Heather Clark  02:49

Exactly. Love it. And help. Where does the enneagram come in to come in? And probably before we get to that, maybe we should back up and explain to people? What is that exactly?


Margot Burns  03:01

What is the enneagram? Well, okay, here’s the here’s the elevator version of the enneagram. Because of course I could I teach whole weekend or week long sessions in the enneagram. So this is a, a way of describing nine different viewpoints, or, really, the psychological term is ego structures, and some people think of it as a personality system. But it’s, it’s so much more than that, you know, it is, it is a way it’s like having a like an owner’s manual for your life. If you can think of that or roadmap you know, like to learn what makes you tick. And, and not just to understand behaviors or, you know, kind of observable patterns, although that’s a big part of it. It’s, it’s understanding the underlying motivations and instincts, like really what’s driving you and what’s making you tick. And that’s what makes it distinctive, and so much richer and more deep than other sorts of personality types, which just gives you an overview or an understanding of how you will tend to behave in the world.


Heather Clark  04:16

That’s beautiful. And how can people use that information to connect first with themselves?


Margot Burns  04:22

Well, there’s so many ways one is, it is such a rich and transformational tool for connecting with yourself. And so it really helps you understand help me understand So what, what is it that is my primary fear? What’s my primary desire in the world? Where does my attention go? And as you know, there are these nine different types and all of them look at the world a little bit differently, right. So if I understand where I’m coming from, and I understand why I think what I think why I do what I do, why I feel what I feel I I have so much more freedom. And I also have so much more compassion.


Margot Burns  05:06

You know, and this is the way I don’t know, it may be perhaps the more transformative tool, right? So when when you understand yourself, you have more compassion, you have more patience for yourself, you know, instead of like, I did that thing again. And why did I do that? You know, it’s more like, Oh, of course, I did that again. That’s, that’s my motivation. That isn’t that interesting. Where can I go from here? You know, and it’s such a kinder, gentler way to talk to ourselves to think about ourselves to feel about ourselves, you know, just just this like, Oh, yeah, well, that’s, that’s my pattern. On with on with it. Now, what can I do instead? And it just leads to so much more freedom?


Heather Clark  05:57

I bet it does. Instead of beating yourself up, Oh, my gosh, there are there I go again, it’s like, oh, no, of course that happens again, that’s just part of my patterning. Okay, great. Part of my pattern. And I really love that understanding the understanding of yourself that leads to compassion and patience with yourself, because how many of us out there have unlimited compassion and patience with ourselves? 100% of the time, like, pretty much nobody. So even just a little bit more of those things? How much easier would life be? If you’re like, Oh, no, that’s fine. There it is, again, here’s my new choice. Spending time spinning? Oh, I love this.


Margot Burns  06:37

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, of course, leads to compassion and patience and understanding of others. You know, if I, if I’m talking to you, and I understand that you’re coming from a different viewpoint, it’s like, oh, we can speak each other’s language now. You know, and, and, I mean, I’ll tell you what, it transformed my relationship, say, with my sister, with my parents, with many of my friends. It really helps my partner and I communicate, because we have a lot in common, but there are some key areas in which we really think and feel differently about things. And, and we can just say, you know, I can say, Hey, here’s where I’m at right now. I mean, I’ll give you an example. One way is, he could talk and talk and talk and talk about, you know, our relationship and what’s going on. And I love that I think it’s super juicy.


Margot Burns  07:34

And it’s, and, and then I, I feel it in my body, like, Oh, I need a break. Oh, I need a break. Okay, I’m done. You know. And so before I get to that place, where like, I have to get up and leave the room, I can just say, you know what, I feel myself ramping up a bit about this conversation, I’m going to take five, and then I’ll be back. So it’s just, I just can’t even say enough about it, how, how amazing it’s been to have this knowledge is this wisdom, that just helps me be better in every way of my life.


Heather Clark  08:13

It really sounds like you’re saying that it is a way to fast track, some introspection, it’s a, it’s a fast track to really begin to understand, oh, this is simply These are my motivations. This is what it feels like when I feel ramping up in your words, but I know that this could lead to this particular response. And maybe that’s not what I want to choose. So instead of waiting till I get all the way there, oh, here’s the signals. Just breathe. I’m gonna take five. Come on back with like, it’s like an owner’s manual for how you operate. I love it.


Margot Burns  08:48

Yeah, it does. And it can be a fast track in terms of getting to a place of more awareness, moving from that place of autopilot. You know, we’re we’re just kind of going through the motions and going about our day, which I mean, let’s face it, a lot of us are there most of the time. So moving from that place of autopilot to awareness, that can come on pretty quickly. What may or may not be fast, as anybody knows, who has started to do this kind of personal work or personal development is that this is this is a lifetime of practice. You know, and, and it’s practice and then the next time you practice, well, maybe you’re at a little different place or you’re deeper with it and, and it just provides this groundwork and this framework, you know, to support you and to pass, it’s like a I’m trying to think of the right word. It’s like having a home base to come back to when you’re ready to do the work.


Heather Clark  09:56

Yes, and it sounds like it supports you throughout your journey. through life, because anybody who’s been in personal development very long, has probably learned Oh, yes, there there. There’s not an end point to this. It’s not a check that box and now I’m complete. It’s like, Oh, no, here it is, again, I’ve spiraled up, we’re just at that, that same thing, but in a different place. And I love it. Because it’s, it’s a framework and a language to really access this in a way that enhances not just connection, but that deep compassion. It’s, it feels like a deep form of self love to allow yourself to have the awareness, instead of the reaction, it’s a response.


Margot Burns  10:38

It really is, it really is, it’s a way it mean just like we nurture ourselves with good food, or, you know, exercise, whatever, this is a way to nurture our soul, really, to come back to the essence of who we are. And not what we call our personality. Yeah.


Heather Clark  10:58



Heather Clark  10:59

So what have you noticed for your clients? Or maybe even for yourself? What are some of the the downfalls or the symptoms of not having that deep connection to yourself? What are some ways that that can express itself into the world?


Margot Burns  11:15

Oh, my goodness, I mean, it can. It can show up in all kinds of ways, of course, mean it, and a lot of times it’s, it can be, it can show up as just plowing through your day, right? You know, just I was talking to this lovely woman the other day in a networking group that I belong to, who said, I never take time to just reflect on how I feel and what I am, what I’m doing, you know, and, you know, it’s just from here to here to here to here. And so, you know, when we’re on autopilot, you know, again, we’re just going through the motions. And a lot of times, we’re moving so fast, that we’re just missing what’s right in front of us, you know, getting to the next goal, or getting the next task done or getting, you know, maybe it’s literally getting from home to work or getting kids to practice or whatever it is. And it’s, it’s this way that we lose ourselves, you know, we go away from our own selves go away from our own heart. And that keeps us from really deeply connecting with other people in the world. That’s probably the number one thing that I hear from women is that they don’t feel truly connected. And they’re looking out there for the connections, and it’s in here.


Heather Clark  12:44

There’s a phrase in functional medicine, that connection is a nutrient. Like it’s not, oh, it’d be nice to be connected. No, it’s, it’s a must have. And I really love your approach of starting with that connection to self, because it’s very difficult to form true and lasting connection outside yourself without first connecting within.


Margot Burns  13:08

Yeah, I agree completely.


Heather Clark  13:13

So one of the things that we talked about, and I’m very interested in this is this idea of gray area drinking. And from my perception, sometimes people use alcohol as a way to relieve stress, sometimes it’s used for other things. And there’s been a lot going on here in the times of COVID. And what with difficulty creating connection with others and all of these other issues. I would love to hear about what is gray area drinking. Yeah,


Margot Burns  13:47

it’s it’s a passion of mine. And, and it’s a personal story of mine, you know, I was a gray area drinker. And so in a nutshell, gray area drinking is this huge space between people who don’t really drink much at all, like maybe they have a glass of champagne at a wedding every other year or something like that, or they can take it or leave it and people who really are on the opposite end of the spectrum who are using alcohol in a way that they would either identify with or be diagnosed with alcoholism and and where it is there. I don’t want to be flippant. I was gonna say they’re going off the rails, but really that that that use of alcohol has started to be very, very damaging in their lives.


Margot Burns  14:40

You know, they’re getting DUIs, they’re losing jobs, losing marriages and so forth. gray area drinking is the space in between there and that’s a big space, right? So it’s, it’s women of well, it’s men and women who are drinking. You know, and let me back for just a second, as we know, I mean, alcohol is so accepted in our culture, and a lot of I mean around the world, but you know, here, it’s like, oh, it’s your birthday, let’s have some, Let’s have a toast, you know, oh, it’s your graduated, you know, let’s have a look, let’s have a party, you know, let’s, I mean, there’s alcohol at everything. It’s totally normal to drink in our culture.


Margot Burns  15:24

And so the gray area drinking is, you know, like, well, I had one glass too many, or, you know, I’m just drinking at a barbecue at a neighbor’s house and cash I had, I noticed I had three glasses of wine, and I really didn’t even want to drink anything. Or, more commonly, it is, I am so stressed out, by the end of the day, I need a glass of wine to take the edge off, you know, and that goes from an every once in a while. occurrence.


Margot Burns  15:57

And pretty soon, it’s every day, you know, or I’m just going to have one glass of wine to take the edge off. And pretty soon the bottles empty. You know, that’s gray area drinking. And it’s, it is anything that, you know, a lot of a lot of women are like, Well, you know, I don’t think you have a problem. I don’t think you’re just drinking like everybody else’s drinking.


Margot Burns  16:21

But I’m telling you, if you think you have a problem with alcohol, then you have a problem with alcohol, period, it doesn’t matter what anybody else thinks it doesn’t matter what culture says, you know, there’s no safe, recommended amount of alcohol, period. Nothing. I mean, your doctor may say, Oh, well, it’s okay to have one glass or something. But there’s absolutely no safe amount of alcohol. And for women, I mean, even even if you look at what the CDC says, it’s, it’s one glass per night, and not like a big giant like globe of wine, it’s four, four ounces, like not a vase of wine, right, it’s four ounces, which is like this much. And so, um, so gray area drinking can be any of that, any of that, just just noticing that, you know, gosh, I’m, I’m


Margot Burns  17:17

drinking more than I want, we’re waking up in the morning going, Oh, I can’t believe I did that again. You know, and I, I need to stop. And so it’s these, it turns into this internal dialogue, where you’re getting into some shame or embarrassment or berating yourself, not remembering what you did the night before, saying something you wish you hadn’t said. I mean, all those things go along with using too much alcohol, and not feeling like you have as much control over it as you really think you need to have.


Heather Clark  17:58

And I would imagine that in the pandemic, this perhaps has become a much larger issue for people


Margot Burns  18:05

it has, it has, in fact, there’s been studies that have come out that overall, drinking has increased by over 30%, since the pandemic hit in March of 2020. And in women, heavy drinking has increased over 40%. And so you think about what’s happened in the pandemic, kids, school shut down. So, you know, probably nine times out of town and this is not a statistic, I’m just guessing. It’s women who are staying home and being responsible for making sure that kids, you know, Arctic or, you know, women are working and they’re taking care of the kids. And that’s, you know, like it or not, that’s often been our role is that things have fallen more heavily on us when it comes to things in the home. But for whatever reason, women are drinking more heavily than ever. And, you know, there’s some, initially there was a lot of joking around, like, Oh, it’s wine o’clock, you know, but there’s nothing funny about it. There’s to use to use alcohol as a way to cope with your life or escape from your life. It’s exactly the kind of thing that I’m trying to help women get away from.


Heather Clark  19:29

And it sounds like this bridges nicely to your work with helping people really create that connection with themselves. Like before you take on the world take on yourself. Has that been your experience as your as people have identified Oh, you know, this gray area drinking perhaps this is an issue for me. Is this a way that you’re finding that they’re able to move through it is through connection with themselves or through another step that comes first or or tell us about the process that you’ve got? Yeah,


Margot Burns  19:59

It’s 100% coming in and connecting with themselves and with ourselves, you know, it’s one of the biggest aspects of the coaching I do with people who identify as gray area drinkers, is helping them understand the physiology of what happens in our body and our brain when we drink, and what happens to our nervous system. And that’s an inside job. I mean, only you can know what what your response is to alcohol and your your unique response. And so it’s more about helping people understand the the clues and their body and the clues that their nervous system is getting, giving them through the day that they need to take a break, that they that it’s time to just look away from the computer.


Margot Burns  20:57

You know, turn the video off on the zoom, there’s I read this great article that just came out by Stanford School of Medicine, about zoom fatigue, you know, and all these really practical ways that people can handle that. So the work I’m doing in the gray area drinking is really about life fatigue, right? I mean, we need a break from what we’re doing. You know, any anytime like we’re doing something for about 90 minutes, our brain, we our productivity starts to like actually decrease if we haven’t taken a break. So it’s little things like that.


Margot Burns  21:32

It’s what’s your morning routine? Have you eaten? Dinner? Are you getting enough protein? When’s the last time you had a glass of water? You know, what are you doing in your life that’s really working for you. You know, it doesn’t matter. You can do all the yoga, and meditation and running, whatever you’re doing. One of my first questions is, is it working? No. Do you like it? Do like going to yoga? You know, well, no, I


Margot Burns  22:01

should though. I should go to yoga. Somebody said it was really good for me. Now, it’s, you know, it’s what’s working for you. And, and in terms of coming back to yourself. It’s like what’s right about you? What’s right about you? What do you already know, you have going on? Let’s start there.


Heather Clark  22:23

There’s so much that I love about this. Like, we’re just, we’re so aligned. But what I love the approach of what’s right about you? And what if all of the features of you are what’s right about you is like if most people need a break, after working for 90 minutes, and you need a break after 30 minutes, maybe that’s what’s right about you. And what have we honored that? And I love that your approach isn’t especially regarding the gray area drinking it isn’t Okay, well try and have less wine at the end of the day and make make all these rules for yourself that are very difficult. You back up, but what’s your morning routine? What’s happening through the day? Are you taking time for you? Where it’s your focus? And, and that builds, among other things that builds resilience through the day. And I just oh, I just love this


Margot Burns  23:14

perfect way to describe it. Yeah, it’s, by the time you get home, I mean, you know, it’s it taking a bath is great. You know, if you’re into bath, you want to take a bath, take a bath. But it’s not, it’s not enough, you know, you if you’re waiting till eight o’clock at night, and everything else is done and everybody else is taken care of. It’s, it’s too late, you know, you’ve got to take care of yourself all day, every day. all day every day. You know, and and notice and there’s so it seems so common sense to pay attention to what’s going on in your body, you know, to watch for the clues.


Margot Burns  23:52

Are you clenching your jaw? Are you breathing? You know, are you can you feel your feet on the floor. I mean, even though if I say if I say to everybody in the audience, put your feet solidly on the floor and bring all your attention to your feet on the floor. It’s like instant grounded you know, put your hands on your knees and really feel your hands on your knees.


Margot Burns  24:17

There’s these little tricks that it’s like instant grounded and we have to do it throughout the day. Give our nervous system little resets and little breaks all through the day. And and it works for gray area drinking it works if you know some people say well it’s not for me. It’s not the Pino it’s the cookie dough. Right? So it’s or what? You know, yeah, it’s like, okay, same principle. You know, same principle, if you’re reaching for food because you’re anxious or there’s something it’s like, well, what are you really hungry for? know,


Margot Burns  24:50

what do you really need? And that’s a hard question for a lot of women.


Heather Clark  24:56

It is especially if it’s if you’re not used to checking in throughout The day and it’s not simply, in my opinion, the granting, oh my goodness, that’s such a good idea. Do that throughout the day, but not only do it but having awareness, spend a moment and really noticing, oh, that is more grounding. Okay.


Heather Clark  25:13

And so it brings to mind when I was going through burnout, I, it was recommended to me by the functional medicine physician, well, you could stop and go do a few stretches. And I was like, lady, you have never been to my job you don’t like that is not what’s gonna work. And it wasn’t until I’d gotten out of the stress and the burnout that I my brain was able to see that was a perfect, perfectly reasonable suggestion. It didn’t seem possible at the time. And when I looked back, I was like,


Heather Clark  25:45

Oh, that was really easy. I totally could have done that.


Heather Clark  25:47

Except I couldn’t.


Heather Clark  25:49

So if you’re in the middle of a very stressful situation, if you’re in the middle of burnout, this is an invitation to try on. What if it is possible to take a small break throughout the day? What if it is possible to stop and pay attention? What if it is possible to simply ask, what do I require here? Whether or not you fulfill it is like a whole different thing. But what if you stopped to ask and I love your approach of I don’t think that you put it this way. But what I’m hearing is these are, in aggregate very small things that you could do that add up to huge changes. Exactly. In a very short space of time.


Margot Burns  26:29

Yes. And in a very short space of time is, is right, you know, we use the word Fast Track earlier. Here’s the fast track, put your feet on the floor and feel the ground under your feet. You know, I would challenge anybody who says they can’t take 30 seconds, and breathe. You know, I and I’ve been there. I’ve been in burnout too. I’ve I was in a career. And, you know, for many, many years in which I had so many pressures and so many deadlines. And, you know, I thought if I stopped for one second, I’m never going to get everything done, you know, and it’s a real fear. And I know what that’s like. And I’m talking about something like I mean, even getting up and just walking to the bathroom. You know, maybe washing your hands coming back to your desk, like, you know, it’s I’m not saying meditate for an hour, you know, at lunchtime every day. Well, if you can do that. Awesome. You know, but like 30 seconds. We’ve all got a minute. It’s just, it’s taken. Yeah, and I’m making I have alarms on my phones. I’ve got him in my my alerts, presence, practice persons practice, right. It’s like, Oh, yeah, right.


Heather Clark  27:50

I use that too. And I put them at really weird times. And, and then that way it it’s what’s not, I was gonna say it’s jarring, but it isn’t it gets my attention. And oh, yeah, that’s right, present. Dun, dun, dun. And it really helps tremendously.


Margot Burns  28:07

Yeah. And it’s, and I think we’re, you know, we we have a lot in common in terms of where we were from and where it what are our understanding as if that world, you know, that world of being under so much stress all the time that we really have convinced ourselves that we don’t have time for this. And, and that’s what I’m trying to break that cycle with women, because you do have time. And, and not only that, it’s the most important thing you could possibly do right now is to take this time for yourself, you know, because it leads to burnout, and it leads to unhealthy behaviors. And it’s just inevitable, you know, you’ve this taking care of yourself. And there’s self care is such an overused term, right, you know, but it’s like, it’s so necessary. The gun the self attention is not selfish.


Heather Clark  29:08

Absolutely, absolutely. So what’s your origin story? How did you come to be doing this work in the world?


Margot Burns  29:18

Oh, well, I mean, there’s, there’s so much history there. But I really, you know, I Hi. You know, I talk about that the enneagram as having like, a roadmap or I was I was a person, a kid or a teenager or a young adult who I often felt like everyone else had a playbook. And I didn’t get a copy. That’s how I felt in the world. You know, it’s like, I think I know what’s going on.


Margot Burns  29:55

And then I get something that hit me like a two by four over the head, and it’s like, oh, yeah, I have I don’t know what that is happening here. I don’t, I can’t figure this out. And, and it was really confusing to me that way of living. And so, you know, I got into a lot of really crappy relationships.


Margot Burns  30:15

And it was when I was going through my second divorce that I found a therapist, actually two things happened around them up. A woman who, who I knew who wasn’t even a really good friend, but she was an acquaintance. I know, he said to me, one day, I’m taking you to yoga.


Margot Burns  30:34

And I started practicing yoga at the studio, and I live in Denver, and yoga had just kind of landed in Denver, this was, I don’t know, 15 or 16 years ago, and I started practicing yoga. And it’s so interesting, and this is this kind of feeds into what we’re talking about, there was one of the teachers every day said, are in every single class set, everything you need for a beautiful life is already inside of you.


Margot Burns  31:03

And, and, and get the visual of this man, so he’s a beautiful South African man, I mean, one of the most gorgeous men that I’ve ever seen. And he would say this in his beautiful accent, everything you need for a beautiful life is already inside of you. And I would be in whatever pose we were in at the time, he said it like, What are you talking about? You know, like, I was like, whatever, you know, because I was just really asleep. And, and then over the course of like, a year or so, you know, and then I had had started seeing this therapist, I was like,


Margot Burns  31:38

Oh, I think I know what you’re talking about, you know, like, I have something in me that is value, I have something in me that is worth looking at, and worth putting out in the world. I was kind of like this, you know, I was like in the shell and in this bubble, and then I came out into the world.


Margot Burns  31:59

And and it was, you know, I didn’t happen overnight, you know, but I had an amazing support. I had a great therapist, and he’s the one that introduced me to the enneagram. And, and that’s why I say it was so transformative to me, because all of a sudden, it was like, Oh, I understand, I understand that there’s not something wrong with me. I’m not some defective. Like, whatever walking around in the world that these are just patterns that I’m working with. It was again, I keep using the word freedom, but that was it. I was free. Yeah.


Heather Clark  32:40

That’s so beautiful. And I really, that resonates when somebody says something like, that everything you need for a beautiful life is inside you that I’ve had the experience of. Yeah. Okay. Cool. That sounds great. And then later, I totally get what you’re talking about.


Heather Clark  32:59

So it’s always nice to have that epiphany. And it’s, it’s is a beautiful story. And I am very present to how the experience of it was probably not beautiful. The experience, much of that was like, wow, okay, this sucks. And, and there’s a bit and yet you’ve moved through it?


Margot Burns  33:21

Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of muck to get through, and, um, and some painful memories and experiences that I had to really come to terms with. But, you know, like I said earlier, transformed my relationship with myself and my family. I was pretty estranged from my family. And they all followed me to Denver, you know,


Margot Burns  33:48

here, I was, like,


Margot Burns  33:50

I don’t, what’s going on here, I didn’t invite you here. I’m doing my own thing here. And here you all are, you know, and, and lo and behold, when I shifted, when I came to terms with my stuff, our relationship shifted. Now, so, um, so the other work was not always easy, but it was worth every minute of it. And of course, it continues. I mean, there’s always there’s always I’m learning more all the time.


Heather Clark  34:23

This is deeply intriguing to me, because it’s fun to talk to somebody who’s had this experience. But you’d said that when you shifted your relationship with yourself, it shifted the relationship with your family. And do you find for yourself or perhaps for your clients, that if they’re having issues like oh, they’re I’m having business issues, they tend to focus on the business. Do you find that? What’s really going on? Is the relationship with cell phone, what’s been your experience with other types of issues?


Margot Burns  34:52

Sure. Well, I think anytime that that there’s a problem or we find ourselves triggered, you know, I know when I’m triggered by someone. It’s my stuff. It’s not your stuff, you know, and but it is our natural tendency, you know, to say, if you would, if you would do this differently, I would feel better.


Heather Clark  35:15

Yeah, I conversation the other day with someone. Yes.


Margot Burns  35:20

So it doesn’t matter if it’s in business, like if you would be on time to meetings, I would not feel so frustrated. So, so where’s the, I mean, sure, is that true if somebody you know, but what’s it bringing up in me? And how can I communicate it directly to that person? Because it’s not personal? No, it’s not personal. It’s, it’s me, and what’s triggering me and my reactivity? And knowing that gives me more control and more agency to deal with it effectively. And, and I think that that’s true across the board for whatever comes up in our lives. And yeah, it’s this, it’s this idea. Again, it starts here, I am the only thing person that I can control. I can control my reactivity, I can control my, how I respond, what I say, you know, how I behave in the world. I can’t control you, I can’t control anybody else.


Heather Clark  36:22

Well, and when you get that agency for yourself, when you’re using the triggers as a teacher, and doing what some people call Shadow Work, but integrating that and doing all of the really hard work, you don’t get agency just around that it’s throughout your whole life it gives you it’s actually it’s a true power. And it’s not necessarily trying to control all these little things will if you would just change this thing, then I would be okay. No, that’s a Total Drama triangle issue. But it’s like, Okay, well, I notice I’m triggered. What is the trigger when we work through that, blah, blah, blah, and then you may discover, oh, this is an opportunity for a boundary. Like if somebody is consistently showing up late to your meeting, you know, that maybe doesn’t fly. But instead of being triggered about it, you’ve just identified yet that doesn’t work for the overall goal here, I’m going to reestablish it’s a totally different vibe. And it does create freedom, not just in that space, but it ripples, or at least it’s ripple through my life and that of clients, and I’m pretty sure it’s done it for you and your clients as well.


Margot Burns  37:28

Yeah, it does. It does. Because, you know, if I, if I just noticed my trigger, I noticed Oh, I, you know, I’m I get my thing is that I feel defensive very quickly, you know, and I used to be really oblivious to it and think, you know, I always thought that, Oh, well, I’m, you know, cool as a cucumber and nobody knows, I’m upset. It was like, coming out my pores, you know? And, and now,


Margot Burns  37:58

I just, I’m like, oh, oh, I noticed that I’m feeling defensive. Let me take a minute. And then I, you know, I take a moment or even just saying it, you know, like, Oh, I I noticed I’m reacting to what you just said,


Margot Burns  38:12

I feel defensive. You know, is this what you meant, and just clarifying it.


Margot Burns  38:19

Now, when I first started doing that, as as with most of us, it didn’t come out so eloquently. You know, it was kind of messy, and it was probably more aggressive than I needed to be, you know, but like anything, it took practice, if you know, and I practice, I practice saying, saying what I feel I practice saying what I want and need and and I worry less about the outcome. It’s more about showing up for myself, and showing up for ourselves. That’s what that’s where the real work is. How can I show up for myself? When things are not going the way that I want them to go? It doesn’t mean I’m going to get what I want. But I have taken care of myself


Heather Clark  39:07

and showing up for yourself when things are going well for you to not okay, let’s just I’m sure this will be what it’s like for forever. I don’t need to pay. pay any attention to this like no, how can you consistently show up for yourself? No matter what. Exactly.


Heather Clark  39:26

And I just I really love your example of Oh, I noticed that I’m feeling how I’m feeling I’ve I’ve used that to Oh, I notice that I’m have you know, going to take a moment here. Like or maybe I don’t notice, or I’m reactive, but I hear myself say something I’m like that doesn’t that doesn’t sound right. I would take a moment I noticed I’m not able to have an adult conversation right now. I’ll be back in five. Go Okay, great.


Heather Clark  39:54

And it’s it removes the resistance on my end it helps the other person understand what’s going on and gives them an opportunity to show up or not that’s on them. And I just love the way that you move through that. Because I don’t know if it was your experience, but it’s my experience and that of clients that at first, that can be very terrifying. Well, I want to tell people what’s going on. And you’d already identified it, Oh, honey, everybody can see it anyway. It’s like everybody already knows.


Margot Burns  40:27

It does feel very vulnerable, though, to, you know, to say, Hey, you know, to, you know, to let someone maybe see a little chink in your armor, you know, there’s a fear, I think that many of us have, that if, if I reveal what’s going on, I’ll be taken advantage of, or people will not respect me or perceive me as weak. But the truth is, it takes tremendous courage to just be real, you know, to just be real, and to understand that it’s a gift to someone else to say, you know, what, here’s the impact that your statement just had on me. here’s, here’s how I feel when I hear you talk to me this way. And, of course, there’s also a gift in how you deliver that feedback. Right? But it’s, it’s just taking ownership of it. That’s a big part of, of my personal work and my work with other people is how can we how can you take ownership of what’s going on with you, and then deal with it, and then go out into the world? You know,


Heather Clark  41:38

it’s a gift to them to be real like that. But it’s also a gift to yourself, no matter how that person responds. Because there are some people that aren’t operating. optimally, let’s call it and perhaps they would try and take advantage of you. But they would anyway, whether or not you’re being real, it’s truly it’s, it’s, at least in my perspective, that is truly a gift to yourself to be real with. This is what’s happening. This is what’s going on. When you say that I feel like this. Is this what you meant, like perhaps it’s a misunderstanding, and it really it builds that deep connection with yourself first, and then with others.


Heather Clark  42:20

Beautiful, just beautiful.


Heather Clark  42:24

What does it mean to you to be unshakable?


Margot Burns  42:30

Yeah, you know, I knew this question was coming. To me, it is really being grounded in who I am, in my essence. And I’m not sure what else I can say about it. It is, it is really being here, connected with my heart. That isn’t that is. That’s where my work has been. Lately, I’m a head type, right? I’m a heady, analytical kind of person. And that’s my go to place. And so for me being unshakeable, is being grounded in my body, and my heart and my essence.


Heather Clark  43:14

And you’ve got several tools to approach that. Because the enneagram is a great tool for that there are other tools on the planet. Because sometimes when people hear, be grounded in my essence, it depends on where you’re at. If you’ve had that experience, those of us who have been so fortunate to have that experience are like, Oh, yes, yes, please. But other people like how would I even begin that? That’s where you come in.


Margot Burns  43:44

Yeah, that’s, that’s where we’re we come in really? I mean, yeah, you know, we are two coaches in the world who are doing this, like help guiding people back to their essence, guiding people back to the core of who they are. And you know, and I, I know that there are people out there who have done this kind of work on their own. I don’t recommend it. I, we need support, we need community, we sooner or later when you’re doing this work by yourself.


Margot Burns  44:16

You just can’t keep running into your own ego, you know, and it’s so valuable to have someone who can mirror you Who can say, here’s what I’m observing. Here’s what I’m hearing. Here’s what I’m seeing now, and I have found that to be invaluable. And, I mean, there’s some belief that this work is not just difficult, alone, it’s impossible. And so I there’s no it is not week two, to get support and ask for help.


Margot Burns  44:55

In something that you if you don’t know where you’re going or what you’re doing somebody rails can help you with that. You know, I’ve gotten an I, I’m a firm believer in it, you know, and getting coaching, business coaching, marketing, oh my god, like I knew nothing, nothing, I got I paying somebody to help me with that, you know, it’s, it’s fine, somebody who can really truly support you and where you’re going.


Heather Clark  45:25

I couldn’t agree more. And there’s so much value in being deeply witnessed. Like having somebody just not just observe, but witness, it’s like a whole different level, it’s that full presence. And that alone can shift so much for you so much, and a great coach can do that. Highly recommend. And then of course, there’s tools and all these other wonderful things, but it’s that


Margot Burns  45:52

that really being seen really being seen. I also am a big believer and groups, I do a lot of groups I I teach classes, and in the gray area drinking i have i do both one on one coaching and group coaching. And there is a place where it’s like, oh, I’m not alone in this. Oh, here’s 15 other women who know exactly what I’m talking about and how I feel and how it is to try to get through my day and and feel completely alone. And boy, that glass of Chardonnay. Sure. Sounds good right now. Right? And so yeah, that being witnessed, and also having a having a crew, right, having a community who understands where you’re coming from and sees you.


Heather Clark  46:44

Yeah, and I would guess that it’s not only the 15 other women but 15 other delightful women.


Heather Clark  46:50

Oh, oh, this isn’t some horrible, shameful problem. This is just a thing that’s happening and there’s a way through it. Cool. Yeah, I love it. That’s wonderful. Like, tell us where can people find you?


Margot Burns  47:09

So I have a website that is www Margo burns coaching. com. I have a LinkedIn page under my name Margo burns. My email is wake up at Margo burns coaching Comm. And so those are three ways to find me pretty quickly. on all of those buttons, there’s or on all of those sources, there’s a button to get to my calendar. So or to be added to my email list. And so yeah, I’d welcome inquiries or curiosity from anyone listening.


Heather Clark  47:54

Beautiful, beautiful, this. Just so joyful. Thank you so much for coming on to the show.


Margot Burns  48:00

Thank you for having me. I’d love talking to you this last hour or so and really wonderful questions that really got me thinking about things and talking about this from just a really connected, soulful area or way so thank you very much.


Heather Clark  48:22

Thanks so much for listening. I’d love to hear from you. Go to unshakable being calm and submit your question, comment or topic request. Maybe unshakable, unstoppable and vibrant again until next time,