How the Stories We Tell Ourselves Create (or Hinder) Resilience and Connection with Laura Packer

Today’s Guest

Laura Packer knows the best way to the truth is through a good story. With over 25 years of storytelling experience and a degree in folklore and mythology, she has told, taught, ranted, raved, consulted and considered storytelling around the world. When she isn’t telling, she teaches, gives keynotes, runs venues, coaches, writes, and helps people and organizations use their voices to make the world a better place. She has won many awards including the National Storytelling Network Oracle Award; Best in Fringe Kansas City (and others); semi-finalist in the Best Slammers in the Nation; and most recently her books From Audience to Zeal: The ABCs of Finding, Crafting, and Telling a Great Story and the accompanying workbook were honored by Storytelling World. Laura is also the creator of #storyseeds, creative sparks for everyone, available as a card deck and online.

RESOURCES

From Audience to Zeal: The ABCs of Finding Crafting and Telling a Great Story and the Audience to Zeal Workbook audiencetozeal.com

‘#storyseeds cards etsy.com/shop/storylaura

coaching and performing http://laurapacker.com

episode transcription

Heather Clark 

Welcome to Unshakable Being: inspiration and practical tools for purpose led helpers, guides and leaders like you to shift out of stress, stop going in circles, and get what you want in your life body in business. I am Dr. Heather Clark, and I’ll be your host.

Heather Clark 

Hello, and thank you so much for joining us. Today we have Laura Packer, who knows the best way to truth is through a good story. She’s got over 25 years of storytelling experience has won multiple awards, including the National storytelling network Oracle award. She’s the author of from audience to zeal, the ABCs of finding crafting and telling a great story. She’s also the creator of story seeds, and she’s someone who is delightfully delicious Lee fully present. Great at holding space. Laura, I’m so pleased that you’re here. Welcome to the show.

Laura Packer 

Heather, thank you so much. I’m delighted to spend this time with you.

Heather Clark 

Lovely. I met Laura through she had a storytelling class in the Kansas City area. And I drove 45 minutes to go to this thing, which is not something I normally do. And I’m so glad I did. She was really bringing it the whole time. And I learned so much in such a short space of time. So I’m overjoyed to have you on the show.

Laura Packer 

Well, I’m really glad that the class was worthwhile for you. That is a long haul for a storytelling class.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, but totally worth it.

Laura Packer 

I’m so glad

Heather Clark 

you love it. So I one of the things that I’ve been playing with is this idea, at least in self care. There’s an idea that the story you’re telling yourself, really influences whether or not you’re going to have a stressful event like it It’s like you’re telling yourself what your experience was, and it dramatically impacts your stress. Is this something that you found as well or like riff on this a little bit?

Laura Packer 

Sure. So we all tell ourselves stories about our lives, and about our abilities. So we tell ourselves the story of I am a healthy person, I am an unhealthy person. I am delicate I am, whatever it may be, we hear we tell ourselves all kinds of stories about who we are. And while we can’t avoid stressful events, what we have some measure of control over is how we respond to them. And I think that’s where the story really comes into play. So I’ve had some big stressful events in my life. And my experience in the moment, and my recovery time afterwards, was significantly influenced by my role in the story. So did I see myself as being helpless, and victim, did I see myself in a set of circumstances that I couldn’t control, but I was going to do the best I could with what I had. Did I see myself as the villain or as the hero, or as the hapless bystander? My perspective, my understanding of myself in those moments had a big influence on my recovery. It feeds into how how resilient, resilient Lee, it feeds into how resilient we are, pardon me for that little bubble. Because our stories are–the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, are who we understand ourselves to be and who we want to be. So I think there’s a lot of power in that.

Heather Clark 

I think that’s incredibly powerful. And I really like that you’re bringing up was this just a situation that I just didn’t have control of, and I get to choose how I show up versus am I, the victim, the villain or the hero. And that’s it. especially interesting to me, because those are the three corners of the drama triangle.

Laura Packer 

Ah, I didn’t know that you’ve taught me something new. Thank you.

Heather Clark 

Yeah. For those that the drama triangle, it’s, you know, am I the victim, which that requires a villain. And then it also requires a hero. And sometimes we identify more as the hero, I’m going to swoop in and fix this and then that the hero gets to not focus on their own stuff. They need to make something else wrong. And there’s Robert sapolsky did a lot of research in the stress world about how if there’s somebody lower in the pecking order to blame or or to, like, create a problem for then it relieves our stress. So the drama triangle is like a stress relief thing. So that’s interesting. You bring it up, what’s my role in the story? And then you also is this just something that’s happening that I didn’t have control over? And I get to choose how I show up that I love that.

Laura Packer 

Well, I’ve had enough things happen in my life that I didn’t have much control. And so I got to decide how I responded. The big example and the one that I think anybody who knows me at all has had the fortunate misfortune to hear about is my first husband died from pancreatic cancer. And while he was sick, I could have chosen to try and make the story all about me, which it was not. It was about him. And it was about all the people who love him. I could have chosen how I responded, I could have been passive, or I’m just full of Whoa, instead, what I what I did, and this is because of who I am, but I knew as soon as he was diagnosed that he wouldn’t survive this. So I asked him what he wanted and then I did my best to make that happen. So when he died, I had no doubt that I did everything I could. And I think had I responded differently. It would have been much harder to stick around to be in the world after his death. So it’s it wasn’t a conscious choice at the time. But it’s something I’ve thought about enough that I’ve come to realize that that, that that pattern of thinking is a deep part of who I am and of how I approach the world. And that’s just one of the more dramatic examples.

Heather Clark 

One of the really interesting things about that is all of those stories, at least what I hear when you share that is all of those stories existed, the all those different story threads were in there, if there was a story that was all about you. There was a story that was all about him. There was a story that was like, choose your dynamic, it was all in there. And, and you chose to, it sounds like if I’m understanding correctly, what you were choosing is the story that included everybody and focused on the love and what’s your desire.

Laura Packer 

I tried to, I certainly didn’t always succeed. I had moments where I really wanted it to be all about me, but but I did try and make That choice and I tried to make it consistently. So when he died, um, and then the story my story was all about me and my grief and mourning, I was able to let myself more deeply and powerfully and I think came out of it. Well, you never come out of it you always more than the people you love, you always miss them. But I came out of the worst of it transformed and more empathetic. And, and it was it ended up being a powerful experience and not I don’t want to say a positive one because I’m not glad that he died. But I did not stay in the story of this terrible thing happened to me. The story was this big thing happened to me and I had to respond to it deeply and powerfully. And that’s changed who I am and in some important ways that I that I will I wish I hadn’t died. I don’t know that I would undo these changes. And that’s a complicated set of feelings to have.

Heather Clark 

Yes, yes. And there’s a lot of narratives in the world that, at least from my interesting point of view that well, you know, grief is this, and that is that and it’s more of a, it’s it’s flat, and you’re only allowed one or two feelings, when really, when you look at the whole story, it’s all of the feelings are there. It’s a very deep, complicated thing. And it sounds like you’re one of the stories that you’re telling yourself Is that not only is that okay, that’s actually normal and to have that more complete experience?

Laura Packer 

Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s entirely normal to have the full range of feelings and to be confused by them as well. So I’m about two weeks after he died friend came to visit and I picked her up at the airport. And while we were standing there, we saw something that was pretty And I started to laugh. And as soon as I started to laugh, I slapped my hand over my face. Because part of me was thinking, How can I be laughing? He died two weeks ago. But the laughter is part of it too. And in grief, we have a chance to honor those we love who died. By living the fullest life we can. Now I know that not every relationship contains room for that. I was very fortunate in that. Shortly before his death, he asked me to promise him that I would eventually be okay. And I thought I was lying as I was making that promise. But lo and behold, I eventually was okay again. I’m sorry about the noise in the background, by the way. So, so I told myself, I told myself, I had to keep my promise. And by that being part of the story that I was living, I did, and I don’t know if I would have been able to otherwise

Heather Clark 

I love it. And through this lens of story, it’s okay. Well, this is the story that I’m going to be okay. And so now this is the journey. I’m on it. It sounds like that really helped you live it out and have it come true.

Laura Packer 

I think it did. I think that that one of the things that he and I said to each other, my first husband was also a storyteller that, that everything big and dramatic. That happened in our lives was all part of what we called living the life of the storyteller because it is all fodder. It is all fodder for the next story. And when you think of it that way, all experiences become almost equally weighted in some ways, although some will have more lasting impact. Some will be easier to get over, some will be harder to get over. They all are fodder for the next story

Heather Clark 

and you get to choose at that point. The lens you see it from it sounds like how do you find that that has helped you? Because it sounds like it’s really helped you build resilience, resilience? Is it just something that happens? Or is it an active tool? It is an active tool. It’s something I think about a lot.

Laura Packer 

I never knew what the word was for it, or I didn’t know what the word was it for much of my life, and then someone introduced me to the concept of reframing. So reframing is when we look at some experience and say, we get to choose how we view that experience. And I’ve done reframing my entire life. It it. It has always been important mean important to me to understand multiple points of view to understand the point of view of the other, whoever the other may be. And so that was an early exercise in reframing. I remember being a child and writing stories about how the monster and Frankenstein was really a good guy. And, and so it’s something that we can cultivate. But if we don’t cultivate it, it won’t happen. And I should also stress that there may be times when it simply doesn’t work that way. I don’t want anybody listening to feel like they have failed, because they can’t do this or because it’s been hard for them to do it, that we are informed by all of our experiences, and all we can do is the best we can at any given moment.

Heather Clark 

Yes, absolutely. That’s because I know with my clients, I’m like, Okay, well, what are some other ways that it could be seen? Like whether or not you agree is not the point, it’s just a matter of see as many different and from this context, I’ll call them story threads, but the different points of view as possible that might exist in this moment. And then if you’re able pick the least stressful one and run with it, because it’s just as true as everything else. That’s right. That’s right. It’s kind of like if you read a text message and it hits you wrong, try it in a different tone of voice. Yeah. With different inflection,

Laura Packer 

and there will be times when you can do that and but choose not to. If someone does something that you find particularly heinous, I don’t particularly want to feel a lot of sympathy for Adolph Hitler. I’m, I’m capable of it. I know that I can. I’ve tried it as an intellectual exercise. But I don’t particularly want to nor do I think it’s worth my while to. So we get to make the choice about when and where we do that. And once we’ve cultivated the skill, it becomes easier and easier to discern when we should pick up a different story, whether in our own lives or in the world at large.

Heather Clark 

Well, yeah, and that’s also what I hear is that’s also a boundary issue as well. You could cultivate empathy and sympathy for him and that’s fine and great, but it’s not your job to.

Laura Packer 

That’s right. That’s right. It’s very much about boundaries. We get to decide who we let into our heads. We can’t it’s not always It’s possible to do that. But we got to decide what stories are in there. And who do we encourage to stay?

Heather Clark 

How does that relate to stories we take in, let’s say through purely entertainment, like shows we watch? Or even like following people on social media following their stories? How does that affect our worldview? What do you think?

Laura Packer 

I think it’s immense. Um,

Laura Packer 

I think that if you choose to engage in media, that emphasizes compassion and empathy and kindness, you’re more likely to feel those things. If you choose to engage in media that demonizes the other, then it becomes much easier for you to do that the influence is enormous. And we get to choose what we were mean. sensitive to, and what we become, in order to what we become callous to impart by the kind of media we take in. My, I’ve since remarried. And my husband now simply can’t watch anything that has cruelty to animals in it. It’s too hard for him and too painful. And so he chooses not to take that in because he loves animals, and he doesn’t ever want to be accustomed to the idea of someone being cruel to an animal. I can’t watch, particularly violent films, especially if the violence is exaggerated or quasi realistic. And like the Saw movies and things like that. I choose not to take that kind of media in because I don’t want to become jaded to it. I never want to be a person who says oh, well, it’s okay that these things happened because they just saw it on a movie. And I know that’s kind of an exaggerated example. But I think that the more cheated We become by our media choices, the more likely we are to accept atrocities in real life.

Heather Clark 

I agree with that and even atrocities but everything on that spectrum as well. It’s I was watching. Oh, you know, I went back and watched a show that was very popular in the 90s. And I loved the show in the 90s. And I watched it I was like, oh, “holy patriarchy Batman!” It was terrible.

Heather Clark 

that it was so normal, you know, we were all swimming in it. And now that there’s been a little more contrast, there’s been a little bit more development it was the contrast was very stark. And it really got me wondering, what am I taking in that’s completely normal to me that maybe isn’t okay.

Laura Packer 

But we also get to choose to sometimes take in those things that we know aren’t okay. I am very fond of monster movies. Not human monsters, but monster Monsters Godzilla and the Sharknado movies and the the various paranormal horror movies and I can choose to take that in with the knowledge that it’s really not okay that Godzilla is running around Tokyo and killing hundreds and hundreds of people and stepping on a bunch of them I can make that decision I can I can be a discerning enough viewer and and consumer of media and I believe that anyone can that they can choose what they’re going to take in and and if they want to take in something like the show you were talking about that was ended up being really patriarchal are there there are others I can think of that were really superb examples of white privilege. I can choose to watch that for sentimental reasons and say wow, I wish I have known then what I know now. And then notice that discomfort and say okay, that’s good to notice what Or else should I maybe be feeling this discomfort? We can then use that as a learning experience.

Heather Clark 

Absolutely, yes, please. Like. One of the things I also like is this idea that when I watched it, I guess I didn’t have this with this particular movie, but using your Godzilla example, we have not examined Godzilla’s motivations at all. Frame is set, such that they’re set up as the villain, and sure sure things are happening that that aren’t creating more. And I’m just thinking there’s, there’s a show Supernatural, you may have heard of it. It’s got like a gajillion seasons. And there’s 25 plus shows for every season. There’s a lot of these shows and it’s essentially it’s a mini monster movie every week. And I was watching it for a while and I got to the point where I was like, well, they’re just killing it because it’s a monster like it hasn’t even done anything. What, what? And I thought what that is a really interesting narrative. And if I were able to buy into the Okay, we can just do one thing solve this problem and everything is sunshine and roses, I could see that perhaps there’d be less stress in my life, but that were more, you know, it’s one of those big questions. If I’m setting the frame too narrowly, does that really help me show up in the world with less stress? Or is that actually creating more stress that I’m unaware of?

Laura Packer 

Well, you know, that that brings it back to that brings it back to what stories we choose to engage with. The world is infinite shades of gray, infinite shades of grey and infinite subtleties. So we can hold that in in the forefront of our mind. For only so long. There comes a time when we have to say alright enough. I’m going to I know that I can feel it. empathy for this, but I can’t do it anymore. Or we can say, why aren’t they feeling empathy for the monster, for example, in Supernatural, I choose not to do that anymore. So when we view it, when when we bear in mind that it is all nuanced, then we can make more discerning choices that will lead to greater mental health for us, as well. I don’t know if that makes sense. So kind of we compare

Heather Clark 

1. Yeah, absolutely. I love it when you ref. It’s just so delicious. Yes. It makes perfect sense to me. And I’m thinking, Well, I’m just thinking of a client I had, who he came to me to recover from burnout. And we made really good strides, but it was very difficult to get it completely resolved. And we were talking about it and we decided that probably it was because he was watching. I forget how many hours of cable news and it’s one of the channels. That’s notorious for… I’m trying to think of a nice way of saying it anyway. So think a

Laura Packer 

A certain perspective. They have a certain perspective.

Heather Clark 

Yes, that they may be particular perspective. And it’s my opinion, it’s rather fear mongering. And so I talked about like, I really feel like that’s continually activating your stress response system. And he’s like, well, I want to be in touch with the world. That’s fantastic. Let’s brainstorm some ways that you can feel comfortable and be in touch with the world without having your system like this activated. And he, he did it for a while, and he got better. And then he chose to go back to it. And I just thought that was so interesting. How it and again, it’s my opinion that he was immersed in certainly the news of the day, but more about the angle of the story seemed to be very stressful, very fear based. And there was something about it that helped him feel more comfortable. So he returned to it. I just have been so interested in this.

Laura Packer 

Well, it seems like there there are two different narratives at play there. So there’s one where he’s feeling stressed. He understands what the stressor is, and that he has the power to change that. As I said earlier, we get to choose how we how we respond. So as a corollary in my life when we’re recording this, while the pendant while the COVID-19 pandemic is still happening, and I made a choice fairly early on in the pandemic that I had to limit my news consumption, because the more news I consumed, the more frightened I got. And I didn’t want to live in that state of fear. So I set up some parameters for myself around news consumption. So he did the same thing and his stress levels went down but there is some other story that is being fed in him by watching this, maybe it’s that he needs to Feel self righteous anger, maybe that was a big part of part of part of the story of his childhood. Maybe he needs to feel that the perspective that’s being offered on on this news channel is right. And when he doesn’t pay attention to it, it erodes his worldview. So maybe he needed to reinforce his worldview. But it sounds like there were two competing internal stories going on. for him.

Heather Clark 

I agree. At least two. Yes. Yeah.

Heather Clark 

And, and not do.

Laura Packer 

We all. That’s right. And it’s not that he’s wrong. It’s that the choices we make are based in part by what story we want to reinforce.

Heather Clark 

Well, and that’s accessing that is when you can find the key to that. That is usually where people are able to turn the corner at least in the work that I do with people because and I can’t remember if I’ve shared this with you before, but we come into the world. we’re wired a particular way. This is who we are. Are, but then we develop an identity when we’re very young. And the identity is made up of, essentially, the story that we tell ourselves, it’s the filter of who we are, it’s our worldview. And when they’re close together, you’re fine. But through a series of very small decisions, your identity gets further and further away from who you truly are. And all of the stress and tension in life is in the gap between them. And the bigger the gap, the less energy you have in your life. So a lot of the work that I do, and I think a lot of stress in general, is at least from this context, identity based. And when you’ve got something that challenges who you think you are, when there’s a contradictory story, that’s incredibly stressful. And that’s why I’m just so delighted to talk with you about this. If people can shift that story even a little bit, it seems to make huge differences. And I love that you have this lived experience of Yes. You’re an amazing storyteller. Yes, yes. But you’ve got this lived experience of using this moment to moment in your own life, and building resilience in the face of some really big things going on.

Laura Packer 

I don’t know any other way to live. I think that’s what we all do to the best of our ability. I think the question is whether or not we’re aware of the of weather and whether or not we’re aware of doing it.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, and this, this choosing to respond that you’ve shared a couple of times to me. That is, it’s almost the only control we have over our lives and not control from a get everything locked down. But like this is your true power is how you choose to respond. Mm hmm.

Laura Packer 

Absolutely. And that’s everyone’s superpower if we choose to access it, and that that is Again, thinking about the pandemic, how do I choose to respond to this global event that’s happening? Do I choose to respond angrily or fearfully? Or do I try to find some some placid place amongst all of it? Do I make choices that are for my benefit only or for the benefit of my community? I get to make all those choices. And sometimes if I’m thoughtful about it, the choice that I end up making is not the comfortable one. This is not about being comfortable. It’s about it’s about living the life telling the story of who you are in the way that most resonance resonates with who you want to be, or at least just for me. And I think that that’s a powerful knowing that is really powerful and empowering, because we get to decide I want to be this kind of person. I will make choices that lead me closer to it.

Heather Clark 

Beautiful, I love

Laura Packer 

this.

Heather Clark 

So I want to hear your origin story. How did you get to this place doing what you’re doing.

Laura Packer 

Well, I was bitten by a radioactive spider, and things just kept happening. So my mother, while now retired, was a children’s librarian. So, when I was young, she told me stories from around the world, she would practice the stories that she would tell in her library. And my father was an aspiring writer. So I grew up with a deep sense of the importance of narrative and a story both traditional narrative and personal narrative. And these stories having this meant that that I valued story from a very young age. I also you said that when we’re born we have a certain set of characteristics and very quickly who we are is formed. And from a very young age, I was one of those people that people would come and talk to, I’ve always understood on Sunday. innate level, and I don’t know where this comes from that listening is really, really important. And from the time I was a teenager, I’ve understood that sometimes that means that I need to shut up. And remember that it’s not all about me, which is one of my mantras. It’s not about you. Um,

so

Laura Packer 

those, the value of narrative, and the value of listening and trying to listen without judgment, and the value of it’s not all about me, and sometimes I just need to get out of the way. Those have shaped everything I’ve done. When I was in high school, I discovered that there was actually an academic field called folklore, which at the time, was still kind of folksy. You know, let’s talk to the people down in the holler, which is valid and important. But this field was changing rapidly right now in recognizing that Everyone has folklore regardless of how modern and and technological they may be. And I became really interested in folklore. So I ended up getting my degree in folklore and mythology. And while I was in college, I met a man named brother blue, who was a storyteller, a street performer, brilliant and mad at the same time. And I found him I met him when he was performing out on the street. And as soon as I saw him performing, I was absolutely entranced. And within about a year, I found that he was teaching a storytelling class at a local Adult Education Center. I took it and it was immediately clear that this was going to be part of my path somehow. But I didn’t know how I wandered away from storytelling. I thought I was going to be a writer. I thought I was going to be an epidemiologist. I thought I was going to be a craftsperson. But I eventually made my way to a storytelling open mic that brother blue was hosting. And this was 27 years ago. So I went to this event, and I told a story. And by the time I was done telling that story, it was only eight minutes, I knew that this was what I would be doing for the rest of my life. I didn’t know what it would look like. I didn’t know how. But I knew that this was it. I was very lucky. Very, very lucky. Many people don’t have an opportunity to discover what their calling is, or if they hear it for all kinds of reasons that may not be in their control. They aren’t able to pursue it. But I heard it. And that was it. From that point on storytelling was a deep part of who I am being a storyteller was a deep part of my identity. And it took a while to be able to do this as my full time employment. And there were a lot of stops and starts and a lot of trouble. Trying to get there and failing and trying again and a lot of jobs and but eventually I figured it out at least for now. I expect it’s going to pivot again at some point because our lives are always twisting and turning. But whatever I do story will be a part of it. So that’s it. I can tell you about the exact moment. I knew that would be fun for him to hear that.

Heather Clark 

Oh, yes,

please. There are actually two of them.

Laura Packer 

I mentioned I took a class with Brother Blue. I was 19 years old. And the class was called storytelling for healing. Um Heather, I’m pausing here for a moment because I need to talk a little bit about racism. Is that okay with you?

Heather Clark 

Oh, yes, please.

Laura Packer 

Great. So you can cut that out. In this class on storytelling for healing brother blue, who’s African American, and his wife, Ruth, who’s also African American. Listen to everyone in the class. Tell the story. That they felt they most needed to tell everyone in the class was white. And most of the people in the class were at least in their later 20s, if not 30s 40s and 50s. Almost every single one of the people in that class told a story about the time they were mean to a black person. And brother blew because of who he was, listen to it, and told them how beautiful the story was, and how beautiful their souls were. Lou was an amazing healer. But I was 19. And at 19, I was not as compassionate patient understanding I didn’t have the lived experience to know that everyone who is in a position of privilege has these stories, whether or not they know they have these stories, but everyone who’s in a position of privilege, at some point has done something crummy to someone who does not have that privilege. So I ended up telling a story that I made up that was mythic in its flavor. That was intentionally a story about healing from woundedness. And when I was done telling the story, Brother Blue stood up, and he got walked right up to my face. He didn’t have much of sense of personal space. So he’s very close to me. And he pointed at me and he said, You have the power. And that was an incredible moment. My I remember being embarrassed because he didn’t say that to anybody else. And also being excited because I had the power. And then life went on. I ended up finding his open mic. He did not remember me, his wife did, but he did not. And I told that story. And by the time I was done, I knew that that’s what I would be doing. And about six months later, I walked in, I had no story in mind to tell and when my name was called, I got up I made up something on the spot that has become one of my signature stories. And it’s a really important story for all kinds of other reasons. By the time I was done, I was shaking, because I could see that I wasn’t I could not turn away from this, that that there was something that I could do here that was important and meaningful, and couldn’t make the world a better place. And those two moments together really set me on this path.

Heather Clark 

Oh my goodness. I love that. I love that to be told at 19 and having been 19 I feel like I understand what you’re telling me when you’re like, yeah, if only know what I know now but to be told you have the power. Because when I hear that he really saw Oh no, you have the ability to hold the space and listen and channel all of this. And then that moment, when it gets a hold of you you can run if you want to

Laura Packer 

Run if you want to, but you’re not going to be able to run away. It was so clear that that whatever I did it was going to be somehow related to that. And I was I was on 25 when that happened so again, I was really fortunate that these things happened when I was so young.

Heather Clark 

Yes. And I bet they can happen to people at

Laura Packer 

strange and I’d expanding point at any point these things can happen at any time in your life. And if it happens, if you choose to respond, alright, I don’t know what this is, but I think I need to do it, then the world will reveal itself to you in in amazing and unexpected ways. Equally, if you say I cannot do this now, it’s not that the world is going to say Nope, you’re never gonna have that opportunity again. You will of course have the opportunity you will just find yourself represented with the opportunity over and over again. Because it is in you to do this thing, whatever it may be.

Heather Clark 

It’s like I say, Oh, don’t worry, it’ll come up again.

Laura Packer 

Whether or not you want it to

Heather Clark 

actually, it just it might get louder is all

Laura Packer 

Yes. Yeah, it’s, it’s some. I truly hope that everyone on the planet has a moment to experience their calling the when the calling comes knocking. And that and to recognize that even if you can’t respond to it in the way that you think you should, at that moment, when I was 26, when all that started when when I when I realized I had no choice, but it took me another 10 years before I felt like I actually had a sense of what the path was. So So when the calling comes, you need to be willing to dance with it. Even if it means saying, Hey, you know right now I have these kids and the world is such that I can’t Go in and and climb up Everest right now or whatever it may be. But maybe there are other ways that it will open itself to you. And and in fact, in stories, that’s what we see happens all the time. I have mixed feelings about Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey. But there are he’s absolutely right that it’s it works because we all experience it. We all get the call. And what we do next, it’s up to us.

Heather Clark 

Yes, and I think it’s a great way. So when I hear this one of the things I’m hearing is, so when your calling calls out to you, you typically you know, but sometimes we’re telling us a story. Oh, okay. Well, I’m called to do X, which means it needs to look exactly like this and I can’t do this at this moment. So then I can’t be x so if you were called to be a storyteller,

Laura Packer 

My my headphones fell out. If I was holding on to the storyteller,

Heather Clark 

so someone’s called on to be a storyteller. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to there’s no obligation to Okay, well, I gotta quit my other job. I gotta like spend time away from my family. I got to bump up like maybe you’re a storyteller. And an expression of that is yes. Like it can look like any are a teacher and you’re going to teach, you’re going to use stories in your teaching, you are

Laura Packer 

a receptionist at a hotel. And so or front front desk worker and so you’re going to observe the stories around you and maybe write them down. You know, there there are always a million different ways that you can make this happen in your life. It when I first started leaning into being a storyteller, the only real model available was someone who told in festivals, storytelling festivals, and there can only be a limited number of people who tell him storytelling festivals because aren’t so many festivals. So, one I knew there wasn’t specific For me and two, I wasn’t interested in doing that. I wanted to tell stories that were more difficult and more challenging and stranger than what I was seeing in a lot of the festivals. And so I said, All right, work universe, I’m going to try but I need a hand. And so the the, I was able to create those opportunities.

Heather Clark 

Beautiful and, and just with this. So you had mentioned if you’re a teacher use stories, I’m just thinking back to i, you may or may not know, but my, my doctors in pharmacy, so I had a lot of classes that were chemistry related and pretty dry and pretty boring. But some of my favorite classes were actually the most difficult classes it was medicinal chemistry, which is like organic chemistry on steroids.

Heather Clark 

But such good professors they would tell you a story, even though the story ostensibly you wouldn’t think that that was To help you remember all the little details you need to remember, because it’s about the chemical structure because the story was about something else. But oh my goodness, it made that information so sticky.

Laura Packer 

And our brains interesting. Our brains are hard wired for story. If you think about it, human beings have been telling each other stories for at least 10,000 years, telling each other stories. For most of us, our families have been reading for maybe five generations, most families, six generations, maybe 10 generations if we’re lucky. But even so that’s not long in evolutionary time. We’ve been watching videos for 100 years, we’ve had video technology for 100 years. So our brains haven’t had time to evolve towards all of that, to some degree towards reading. We’ve been able to evolve towards it to have a preference for learning that way. But we’ve been telling each other stories as teaching tools for millennia. Ha. So of course it works. Of course, it makes it stickier.

Heather Clark 

Well, and even giving a personal example I’m just thinking of when I work individually with clients or even giving presentations, things like that. But if you can tell people a story of what happened, it’s so much better even if that story is well, in my own life. This is what I found. Instead of here’s how you do it. Boop, boop, boop, it’s more like, Well, you know, sciences discern, blah, blah, blah, this is how you do it. And here’s how it’s applied to my life. And this is my personal example, or this is what’s happened with the client. And now, that’s information that people can actually take in and learn, which is great. But medicinal chemistry was the only classes that really use stories. So it’s like, I’m coming. It’s never too late. But there is a sense that I’m coming much later in life to learning how to tell a story, because it’s not so much People need to know that it’s more like this is crucial information for people. And if you can package it in a way that people can receive and immediately bring into their life, why not?

Laura Packer 

Absolutely. In fact, that’s what a lot of my work is. I do a lot of work with many different kinds of organizations, where I work with them around how do you story? How do we take advantage of the fact that our brains are hard wired for this? How do we combine data and emotional meaning, which is what story often conveys in such a way that it becomes stickier or more persuasive? So it’s all about how do we tell a more effective story in in the right applied way? And you say that you’re new to this? And I would say no, you’re not actually you’ve been doing this your whole life, because we all have been doing this our whole lives. You’re just doing it more mindfully now or intentionally.

Heather Clark 

That’s true.

Heather Clark 

Yes. The mindful intention maybe is more new and then applying it to, you know, business practices, life practices, all of that. Is this part of what you do through your coaching practice? Or is this through your consulting practice? Or, like tell us? I want to hear more about commercial applications of story. I think that can really help businesses become unshakable, not just people. Absolutely. So

Laura Packer 

the answer is yes to both of those. So as a story coach, or as someone who’s working with someone else who wants to become a more confident public speaker or wants to be more creative, a lot of the work there is around how do you discern what story to tell when you don’t have to be a great storyteller? But how do you figure out what you’re going to say? And when you’re going to say it. So that’s, that’s part of my coaching practice. However, you ask specific specifically about business applications and in general about applied storytelling. Every organization has stories within it and every organization not only should but really needs to use Those stories. So they have their foundational stories they have the stories of when they did what they said they were going to do. They have success and failure stories. They have stories about people, they have stories about where they want to go, they have stories about why an individual is actually involved with that organization. And when an organization or an individual in that organization knows those stories, and has a sense of how to alter the story for a given audience, they have a really powerful toolkit of ways to connect with people emotionally and, and powerfully. So an employee is likely to be more committed to the organization if they know why they’re there, and where the organization’s values align with theirs, in particular, if they know a story about it. So during Hurricane Katrina, our organization did these things. And that’s meaningful to me. Or it’s easier to recruit volunteers if you have some good stories about the people you’re trying to serve. It’s easier to sell things. Not only if you can say your life will be better if you buy this widget, but you can say, your life will be better if you buy this widget because you’re kind of like Suzanne, and Suzanne bought this widget, and this is what happened in her life. So these stories can be applied everywhere. leaders need to be good storytellers. Because there’s no more effective way to motivate people to do what you want them to do, then with the well told tale, you can give them the facts and figures. And that’s useful, but it’s the story that will actually get them to do something. So I work with organizations to help them discover what their stories are to help the people in those organizations become better at sharing their stories, and determine how to change the story for a given audience. So for example, you wouldn’t tell Red Riding Hood, to a little kid the way the same way you might tell it to a teenager because there are different lessons that you want to impart in each of those. So it is with all the stories we tell. I work with organizations To collect the stories and extract data from them, because if you listen to people well enough, when they tell their story of an experience, you can actually look for trends and specific information about how things are going. So I do all that kind of stuff with organizations and it’s really fun, because it encourages me to use the scientific side of my brain, the analytical side of my brain along with the emotional and and creative parts of my brain. So I get to use my whole brain when I do this work. And there’s really no feeling I like in the world war.

Heather Clark 

Love that. And, and what I’m hearing is it helps. Doing this helps people show not tell. Just show people like our widget is better because X, Y and Z and people like that, whatever. But you can show people but also I’m just very present to it, how it helps. Well, anybody but certainly businesses in particular communicate their values, yes, in a way that people really receive. They don’t necessarily say where our values are. And people like yeah, whatever, prove it. But if you tell a story, will it during Hurricane Katrina, this is how we showed up. And this is what we did. And that gives that lived experience of the values. Yes. Yeah. Which certainly helps them. certainly helps them. I don’t know, I guess it almost becomes more of not telling people what’s available, but enrolling them in the vision of what’s possible. Yes, very

Laura Packer 

much. So. You tell them the story of here are our values here are the changes that we are working to see in the world, even if that change is you have a cleaner kitchen, right? But you enroll them in that vision, you see this story can be yours to the ads that make make you cry are always going to be the ones that tell the most effective story and that somehow aligns with your values.

Heather Clark 

salutely I love that. And it’s not just commercial applications, I’m just starting to see how certainly I’ve known that story can be a motivator. But I’m seeing it on a deeper level now, because it’s really it’s not telling a story in order to it’s telling a story, to share and get people present to you, which allows them to find the motivation within them.

Laura Packer 

That’s absolutely, and it’s also a way, there’s a wonderful storyteller named Elizabeth Ella. So this is what I’m about to share has both organizational applications, especially for nonprofits, but also just everyday human applications. So Elizabeth Ellis talks about how the reason that we need to tell difficult stories, is we need to be able to say, I went to hell. I came back, I brought a map. And the story is that map. So we tell these stories as a way to know that we’re not alone and to tell others that we are not alone. Organizations tell these stories as a way to say, here’s this problem that we can help you with. It is a way for us to build relationships and connect in, in quick time, in rapid, rapid time that happens. Stories help us build relationships and create empathy more rapidly than almost anything else. And therefore, they actually help us be resilient because they show us the way through, and they give us a toolkit to work on to us when things get tough.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, and it requires an element of vulnerability as well.

Laura Packer 

Oh, yes.

Heather Clark 

Because Because we’ve all had the experience where somebody told a story and we were left with you. Okay, that’s great for you. But they weren’t. They didn’t bring the vulnerability. It was difficult to connect with them. It was all about how glorious they are. Not that those are that’s a bad thing necessarily, but it didn’t really offer handholds for people.

Heather Clark 

Whereas if you’re willing to just show up and be like, oh, here was the disaster that was my life. And this is what went into it. And this is how I’ve come out and, you know, perhaps sets like this in your life, blah, blah, blah. And people can actually connect to that.

Laura Packer 

And we can connect whether it’s true story or what has been presented as true story that we hear on venues in venues like the moth and in many other True Story venues where you may hear a story about someone whose life was vastly more messed up than yours will be, but you can empathize with it, because you’ve had hard times too. And if they’re able to tell it with that sense of vulnerability and openness, it lets you in and it also works in fiction. I mean, fairy tales have been around for a long time, not just because they’re kind of fun. But because they show us that difficult things happen and they can be survived.

Heather Clark 

Yes, and you can pull all of the different threads out of the fair that you’d given the Red Riding Hood example. When you tell it to a child, it’s different than when you tell it to a teenager, which is different. When you tell it to someone in their middle age who can now see, oh my goodness, there’s all these other things that was happening. I didn’t I’d never seen that before.

Laura Packer 

I’ve told that story from the mothers perspective, the wolf’s perspective, the girl’s perspective, the grandmothers perspective, the woman’s perspective, the woods perspective, there are so many different ways to tell any one of these stories, depending on who your audiences. So you need to pair your audience in mind when you’re selecting the stories. But if you can tell a story authentically and vulnerably, then people will be right there with you almost regardless of the content, quite honestly, as long as it’s something that in somehow relates to their lives. But and by vulnerability, I don’t mean you’re standing on stage and bawling. I mean that you are not presenting it as an act of ego. But as an act of presence. The best storytellers I have ever seen are the ones who are are profoundly connected to their audience.

Heather Clark 

I think that’s true, really, of anything just connecting with people like just the profound presence. What does? What are some ingredients of presence from your perspective? Hmm.

Laura Packer 

So good one. Um,

Heather Clark 

can it’s a big question. So questions, take a minute if you need to. Because, you know, I have my ideas, but I’m deeply, deeply interested. This has been a question I’ve been deep diving into.

Laura Packer 

So part of it

Laura Packer 

part of its willingness to be seen, which is how Bernie brown defines vulnerability, right? So it’s about showing up and being seen, so it’s being willing to be seen, presence means you’re willing to say I am here. And I’m not perfect, but I’m still here.

Heather Clark 

Um,

Laura Packer 

presence is also very much about Listening, it’s a two way relationship, you can’t be present if you’re the only one in the room, you need to know that there are others there and it the time may come when you need to create space for them. In fact, I think part of presence is intentionally creating space for whoever else is there, whether or not it’s some whether or not they’re actually going to interact with you, I can be on the stage in a darkened auditorium. So I cannot actually see anyone else in the auditorium. You may not know that when you’re standing on the stage and the lights are on you and the auditorium is dark. You can’t see anything other than the stage in front of you. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t know that your audience is there. And listen for the sounds they make and smile in the direction of the laughter. So presence is also about connecting. presence is about is in part about knowing who you are and having the confidence to be there and saying I am here because of You aren’t sure that you can say that, then people respond to you with the car. I see you. So you need to be able to say I’m here

Laura Packer 

without being a jerk about it. Yeah.

Laura Packer 

Does that help is that

Heather Clark 

that helps tremendously. And that, thank you for that. And that has shed additional insight into. So as a business owner, sometimes I record short videos. And it is just like yelling into the void sometimes. And I just realized because there isn’t the connection of another person on the other end. It’s kind of like, you’re sitting at your home, I’m sitting at my home right now. We’re just on the phone. But yet energetically, you’re very present. And it’s easy to be in connection with you. And I just realized, well, it’s it’s hard to show up and be present on a video when you’re the only one. So I yes, I love That.

Laura Packer 

So I was just working on on, on some exercises around that I’ll be teaching a class soon on storytelling in a virtual landscape. So part of it is you make sure you look at the camera. Um, I actually know somebody who sets up a stuffed animal right behind her camera. And it’s a beloved stuffed animal. So she has somebody looking at her. And the third tip I would give you is that you imagine your audience before you start recording is you spend a moment really clearly imagining who you are talking to. And so you know who they are. So when you’re recording the video, you in fact aren’t recording it into the void. you’re recording it, recording it for someone specific and your effect will change accordingly.

Heather Clark 

Yes, that with practice, and that’s the key right? Be away. Yeah.

Heather Clark 

But I love that well, how fun you’re teaching another class. That’s fantastic and And we’ll hear that like the website to go to for that. I just got really excited when you saw that. But I don’t want to derail the conversation because I want to hear also about while I’m picking your brain, tell me what does it mean to you to be unshakable?

Laura Packer 

I love that question. So it means a lot of things. It means accepting my emotions in whatever they may be at the moment. So if I’m having a sad day, I get to have a sad day. It means it means being authentic with myself, first and foremost. and building a practice of noticing what I’m feeling and noticing what I need in the moment, because that will vary tremendously. It means remembering that not everything is about me. And that is actually quite liberating. Once it becomes a habit. If you’re not the center of the universe, then you don’t have to be perfect all the time. Which makes me it makes me much more efficient. shakable because all right, my hair looks a little silly big deal. It’s not the end of the world. It means cultivating a kind of softness. So if you have a hard vessel, if you have a ceramic jug, it’s very useful for holding things. But if you drop it, it will break and the contents will spill out. If you have a wine skin that is soft, if you drop it, some of the wine will fill it will spill out, some of the contents will spill out. But the vessel itself isn’t broken. So it means cultivating softness, and a willingness to allow yourself to be vulnerable and potentially to be injured knowing that that’s part of what happens in the world. But to not be brittle. If you can become supple, then you can respond to it and say, Okay, this thing happened. How do I move on? How do I restore myself? How do I restore my shape?

Laura Packer 

It means being willing to craft a new story, or to accept that your story is changing, because our stories are always changing. And mind you, I’m talking about best practices here, right? I don’t manage to do all this all the time. It means it means having good boundaries. You know that someone always upsets you. Maybe you cannot interact with that someone or set some boundaries around that interaction.

Laura Packer 

And so you need to spend some time cultivating boundaries.

Laura Packer 

It means being willing to be as kind to yourself and as loving with yourself and as forgiving with yourself and as fierce a fighter for yourself as you would for someone else, whom you love dearly.

Laura Packer 

I think that’s probably enough.

Heather Clark 

That’s beautiful. That’s it. Absolutely beautiful. I’m just gonna take that in for a second. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s very elegantly put. And I especially love the part about boundaries, because I’m of the opinion that boundaries bring joy. Mm hmm. for everybody. And this idea of the willingness to be soft, not a pedal. That reminds me of the book and I’m struggling to remember the author’s name, but the name of the book is anti fragile. Hmm. And it’s quite a good book. And it’s the idea that something that’s fragile is damaged with a with a shock or with a problem and something that’s anti fragile actually get stronger. And that’s what that immediately put me in mind like being soft is the pathway to being strong. Hmm. Because rigid is not strength.

Laura Packer 

No rigid is not strength.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, yeah. And I apologize. I wish I could remember the author’s name. It’s a very good book. I love it. Um, and then I just, I, you strike me as someone who has a pretty good sense of her values, whether or not whether or not you know, it’s easy to be like, oh, here, let me rattle them off. But maybe you can’t like, could you just name for us maybe a couple few values that are really important teacher.

Laura Packer 

Be kind, be kind. Be kind Be kind.

Laura Packer 

Try to be kind. Yes. But that means not just kind to others, but kind to yourself, which is goes back to boundaries. Pay attention. Paying attention is a big part of my value system, listening to what people have to say noticing how they’re saying it. So I would say that listening is one of my values, but it actually that is rolled up in the larger value of pay attention. And that’s not just in service to other people but very much in service. to yourself, because if you can pay attention to the world around you, you might notice when maybe you should leave, not leave the world, but leave where you are. Or if you cultivate that it becomes a way of taking care of yourself.

Heather Clark 

And it really helps you respond to the world instead of react to

Laura Packer 

1. Yes, and being kind as part of that as well. You’re paying attention, you notice that something is happening, and then you get to choose how you respond. And if kindness is up there in the top of your possible responses, then you might find that your path through the world is a little easier and I’m not talking about being being weak or being a pushover. I’m talking about when it’s possible, make the kind choice which includes kindness to yourself. The what really brought that lesson home for me about kindness and about trying not to preach Judge too much is going back to when my first husband was sick. He was in the hospital for three weeks, right after his diagnosis, and at first I was going back and forth from the hospital. Eventually I basically moved in. But every day when I would get to the hospital, and I’d go into the parking lot, and I would park, there was this truck, giant truck that was parked across three, or maybe even four parking spaces. And every time when I looked at it, I thought, What a jerk. That’s really obnoxious. But the truck was there day, after day, after day, and eventually it was covered in dust, which tells a very different story than someone just being a jerk and not wanting anyone to park near them. So that has become incorporated into my value system. If someone is being a jerk, and this certainly doesn’t apply all the time, and it doesn’t mean you should put yourself at risk. And it doesn’t mean that you should allow people to walk all over you. But you know, maybe someone cuts you off in traffic. Alright, maybe they’re a jerk. Maybe they also need to get home because they need to give their kid medication on time or their cat medication on time. Maybe they had a really crappy day, and they just aren’t able to pay attention. Maybe they had a great day, and the world is so vibrant, and they’re so happy, because they’re going to ask their sweetheart to marry them, that they’re anxious and eager. So there are the story that we tell ourselves about these interactions is shaded by do we choose to be kind? Or do we see the world as as an enemy, and frankly, my life is just a lot easier and a lot less stressful. If instead of saying, well, that person’s a jerk, and I get mad at them and I carry it around. If I enact the value of choosing kindness. It makes my life much more comfortable.

Heather Clark 

And it sounds like knowing those values and living them has really helped you be unshakable.

Laura Packer 

It has, it has over and over and over again, even to the point where I’m sometimes when things bad things happen as a result of those values which can happen to any of us as a result of our values. So I am, I met someone, I got scammed, not for a lot of money for about 50 bucks, but I got scammed by somebody. And I had the choice of saying, Oh my god, I’m so stupid. And I was scammed because I wanted to be kind. Or I could say, gee, you know, they must actually not have a great life. If it’s worth that much work for them. It was hours of work from them for them to get that $50 from me, but you know, they put in a lot of time and work I imagine their life isn’t that great? So, okay, they need the 50 bucks. Maybe I was a little dumb for falling for it, but I’d rather assume that someone needs help and do what I can to help. So yes, my it does make me unshakable because it would have been very easy to go down the people or church rabbit hole or I’m so stupid rabbit hole. And I don’t want to be that person.

Heather Clark 

Well, no. And again, it’s just, it sounds to me like it’s more choosing the story that supports you. Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. Beautiful.

Heather Clark 

Yeah. So for the people who are like, I need to take this class, what’s the information about where I can find it? Tell us where to find that where to find you. What else do you have available? Laura?

Laura Packer 

 Oh, I have thank you for asking. It’s not one of the things that I’m always great at talking about. So the class I mentioned, is virtual storytelling. So how to tell stories well in a virtual environment when you’re not directly in front of your audience, that’s going to be offered through midcontinent Public Library, which is the URL is my ny MCP, l.org. Through their story centers, you can find all the information about it there. That class is actually free, because it’s offered by a public library system and they underwriter. So hold on just a minute Hang on. Excuse me. It’s allergy season. So that class in particular is being offered through midcontinent Public Library. However, if you want to learn more about me and the various things I offer, I have two websites for you. You can go to Laura Packer, la You are a PA ck er.com which has information about my life as a writer, as a coach. And as a performing storyteller. You can also go to think story that’s one word think story comm where you can find out about my life as an organizational storyteller. So if you are in a for or nonprofit or an NGO or something like that, and you’re interested in bringing story to your organization, you can find out a bunch about me there there and how we can connect as well as various offerings that I have. I also have a Patreon page. So Patreon is a platform that allows People who love a given artist to support that artist directly by pledging a little bit of money every month and an exchange, the artist gives them access to things that don’t get shared elsewhere. Or you get early looks, things like that. So I have a Patreon page where I blog, I share stories, you can get signed copies of my book, from audience to zeal, the ABCs of finding crafting and telling a great story, and coaching and discounts and all different kinds of things. If you go to patreon.com slash Laura Packer and most of my blogging happens there now. I also have a product called story seeds cards. I’ve been posting on social media is something that I call story seeds. So it’s hashtag hashtag story seeds, which are little creative prompts, just to get you going to get you thinking to get your imagination working. I started doing them because I needed to make sure that my imagination kept working. So I started posting these as a way to just challenge myself a little and it really took off. It’s become A great prompt for writers, storytellers, playwrights, other kinds of people who just want to have imaginative inspiration. I actually turned it into a deck of cards. So it’s a game and you can find those on my website as well on Laura Packard calm. And then there’s my there are my books, the from audience to zeal textbook. And there’s an accompanying workbook which has specific readings and exercises for all different kinds of things. So if you are performing storyteller, if you will want to apply storytelling in your organization, if you want to tell stories as part of family history, all kinds of stuff. There are exercises available in those books and you can find them from audience to zeal, the ABCs of finding crafting and telling a great story story or the audience does your workbook which is the entire title within a workbook at the end, at any bookseller so you can find them at Amazon. You can find them all over the web, or you can go to my publisher which is small tooth dog calm and you can get the books directly from them. If you want to book, you can purchase it for me on my websites where you can become a patron and one of my patreon perks, perks is signed books.

Heather Clark 

how fabulous. And all of this will be in the show notes, all of those links and all of that. So people don’t be like, Oh, I didn’t get my pen in time. It’s all good. You can

Laura Packer 

also watch him and you’ll You can also post my Facebook link my other social media accounts and stuff like that.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, because I also follow you on Facebook. And you do, or at least for part of the pandemic, have been doing some live storytelling, you post really wonderful things. And I one of the things I really love about it, is how it’s not only an invitation, you almost can’t help but start to see something in a completely different way. So it’s just delightful. And then occasionally you’ll post other story seeds. It’s lovely.

Laura Packer 

Thank you. Thank you, I work I try. I try to curate my professional Facebook presence which is facebook.com slash live. Packers storyteller, um, to really help people and help people feel creative and grounded. And like they can access story and that it’s part of their life.

Heather Clark 

But you’re fulfilling that intention. You’re doing a great job at it. I think that’s that’s good to hear. All right, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been absolutely delightful.

Laura Packer  

I’m so happy to be here, Heather. I can’t thank you enough, both for inviting me and for setting up something so people can explore their own unshakeable natures. And I think that’s just a vital and wonderful service that you’re offering.

Heather Clark  

Thank you.

Heather Clark 

Thank you so much for listening to Unshakable Being. You’ll find the links and descriptions mentioned today in the episode show notes located at unshakablebeing.com. May you be unshakable, unstoppable and vibrant again. Until next time.