Getting Into the Flow: Aliveness and Embodiment Through Breath with Lydia Mandell, LPC, ATR-BC

Today’s Guest

Lydia Mandell is an intuitive coach who guides people through life’s transitions, helps them land on their feet, and feel fully embodied. Lydia brings over 20 years of experience as a Licensed Counselor and Board Certified Art Therapist, and teacher to her coaching and healing work. Lydia’s training and experience as a Breathwork Coach and Teacher led her to connections to the wisdom that the body has to offer and she passes that wisdom on to her clients. She combines Conscious Connected Breathwork, intuitive coaching and movement to create individualized coaching and healing sessions to help her clients feel alive, capable, and excited about their lives.

episode transcription

Heather Clark 

Welcome to Unshakable Being: inspiration and practical tools for purpose led helpers, guides and leaders like you to shift out of stress, stop going in circles, and get what you want in your life body in business. I am Dr. Heather Clark, and I’ll be your host.

Heather Clark 

Thanks so much for joining us today we have Lydia Mandell, Lydia is an intuitive coach who guides people through life’s transitions and helps them land on their feet, but feel fully embodied. She’s been a licensed counselor. She’s been an art therapist. She does breath work, and she’s done many other fabulous things. And I’m so excited to have you Lydia, welcome to the show.

Lydia Mandell 

Thanks for having me, Heather.

Heather Clark 

Thanks so much. Lydia and I have been in a few groups together and we just connected a little bit more deeply a few weeks ago, and that’s why it’s like I would so love to have her on the show. I think you’ll enjoy her as well. And I, there’s just so many places I want to start. But I think let’s start with breath work. Tell me about breath work. What does that mean to be a coach with breath work and jump right in.

Lydia Mandell 

Okay, so the kind of breath work that I do is called conscious connected breathwork or rebirthing breathwork with rebirthing, meaning renewal. So, we, in individual sessions, we delve a bit deeper into how your birth story impacts on different patterns that you might be repeating in your life. And so the type of breath work that I’m doing is a circular breath. And so what happens with the circular breath is it bypasses all the stuff in your head and get you right into your body. So instead, instead of you know, obsessing and thinking about a million things while you’re trying to meditate, which I’m sure most people have experienced, if you meditate. Which is fine because our brains are made to think it gets you right dropped into your body. So what I loved about this work is, is that I had a lot of disconnected from my own body when I started doing it. And so when I started, I noticed that I could just get right in there and start to process like old stories, old stuff on things that I was storing in my body on a cellular level, and to move that energy through and out of my body in a way that felt really rejuvenating. It feels like you’re bringing all kinds of vitality into your body and also relaxes your your nervous system. So it’s it’s kind of a two for one and that way that you’re you get excited and motivated and you feel really good when you’re done but you also feel really relaxed and totally fully present your body.

Heather Clark 

So this is a way to really access clearing the things that you’ve held in your body and it sounds like clearing a lot of– garbage for lack of a better word, but without needing to pick through what it all is.

Lydia Mandell 

Right? And so so like during a breathwork session, I might offer someone I might intuit something that’s up for them ask a question while they’re breathing. And I might offer an affirmation or something that they can attach to. So the to move them through a particularly difficult time. Some people have, like big, big emotional releases. But one of the things that I always tell people is, is it if you don’t have a big, huge emotional, cathartic release, it doesn’t mean that you’re not releasing negative energy from your body. It doesn’t mean that you did it wrong, and that it actually can be quite joyful to make some of those releases. It doesn’t always have to be super serious or dark, because I think in some of the healing professions or some and the ones that are not so I don’t know, ethical, maybe you don’t really have this giant catharsis, then you’ve really done the work. And I don’t believe that, I think that, that people release in a way that’s appropriate for them. And it’s individual for everyone. And so some people need to have those big releases some people, it’s, you know, over time, they will release those energies and that those difficult things, but you know, you could be laughing hysterically or crying, you can be quiet and just breathing steadily. So, there are so many different ways that this, you know, this can work for people.

Heather Clark 

Do you find that the releases tend to happen during the breathwork session? Or do they sometimes happen over time after or like, what’s that sort of container and process for it?

Lydia Mandell 

That’s a great question. Because what I noticed is, so when I was doing my training, I’ll give you this example. Sometimes when I was going for a weekend of training, I would be in process before I even got there. So sometimes I think it happens, just knowing that you’re about to do it so in your body intuitively knows, and sometimes the releases happen in the presence of your breath worker or breath work coach. And sometimes things happen later. I had an experience when I was in my training, where I felt great and then I went for a walk and I couldn’t stop crying. And I came back and I thought, I still am not stopping and I thought it would never stop and then I walked into the room and it stopped. It was I needed to release something in that moment. So it so it’s it does, it does happen after the fact sometimes, but the nice thing is that there’s the support of someone to witness and to, you know, people are, you know, when I’m working with people, they are witnessed, they’re held. And the main thing that people say to me is I always feel safe in your presence.

Heather Clark 

Beautiful. I want to circle back to that. But first, I really appreciate you sharing how sometimes the release happens before you even go. Because that’s the thing I noticed in my work as I started to step more into the intuitive piece of the work. People felt dramatically better after simply having made the appointment. It’s like there’s some field that people are tapping into, or time isn’t linear, you know, whatever is really going on. So I really appreciate you highlighting that. And that I think that helps people kind of set the container that it’s not just during the actual, physical or virtual time together. It happens on its own schedule.

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah, and I think that there’s also a cumulative effect. When you do this kind of work. Like the more you do it, you know, the better you’re feeling. And so it’s not like the healing only happens in the session. Because what I’m really doing is teaching people how to heal themselves, because eventually they can do the work on their own.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, and that’s, that’s really the work of all the healers, right? It’s really holding that space and witnessing to create the situation where people heal themselves. And I want to dig more into –I guess holding space. That’s my word. You didn’t say that. But you know, it’s something that’s out there. And what’s it truly mean to witness somebody? What’s that mean to hold space and create that container.

Lydia Mandell 

So for me holding space is having just unconditional regard for the person in front of you and to just bring the presence of the feeling of, you know, to be in the feeling of love in that moment and compassion as holy as you possibly can to, to hold that space, so that someone who just walks into your energy feels like, Alright, I’m held. I don’t have to, you know, I can let my guard down and I’m safe. So for me, when I work with people, I, you know, I welcome them to ask questions I know, you know, I, while they’re doing breathwork, or coaching with me if they’re, you know, some people don’t know what to do. So I try to really create a space in the beginning saying, you know, this is how this how this session works, you know, you’re going to be breathing for about an hour, so the session lasts about an hour of breathing. So, I typically spend an hour and a half to two hours with people because we talk first and then we breathe, and then we’ll wrap up at the end. And I want to give them enough time to reintegrate after bringing all this oxygen into their bodies.

Lydia Mandell 

But I think the way of, of creating the space is really about letting people know what is going to happen as much as you can, letting them know that they’re safe, letting them know that if you need to use the bathroom during the session, I will walk you to the bathroom, you know, like things like that because I think people are afraid sometimes when something’s new to ask questions that they can always speak if something comes up that they don’t have, you know, that they can, you know, move their bodies. I’ve worked with people who said, Can I move now and I said, you can always move while you’re doing this if your body needs to stretch. It’s not like a meditation where you’re supposed to stay in one place for, you know, multiple hours, you can, you know, it’s really about what’s working for your body in in real time. So so I think offering information about what’s what’s likely to happen, but letting them know also that their own individual experiences there’s to have and that not to not to go into it with no expectation just just to be with what what is.

Heather Clark 

That’s beautiful. That’s absolutely beautiful. And if people haven’t had the experience of being truly witnessed and having space held for them, it is glorious. And harder to find than you might expect. Because I know that there are some people that really believe that they’re holding space. And I’m trying to think of a nice way to put this but really, they didn’t create the safety, I’m just thinking of I went to a shamanic breathwork that uses Grof breathing one time and for the setup, someone had shared I’m, we’re all sitting in a circle. And someone had shared, “I’m very nervous. And I have social anxiety.” And we’re like, Okay, great, thank you for that. And then the the guy leading it scooched on his butt all the way across the circle, which was like 15 feet and then hugged her without asking. And I wasn’t even involved as like this is clearly not a safe space. And he had just gotten done saying and I’m creating a safe space and you can… um, yeah, you’re not.

Lydia Mandell 

That’s another important point that you bring up is I often will say, I don’t typically touch people while they’re breathing. But if I feel called to, I will ask you first because and then I always ask you know, sometimes I’ll put my hand on someone’s like collarbones had to help them know where to breathe and or you know, I’ll do other other things to kind of help them feel safer but always always asking so I think once once that all the ground rules are set people feel much safer and I think it’s wait if you go in without your own agenda, I think that sometimes in those those safe feeling spaces, and they know that that there’s not always there’s there’s sometimes is an agenda around, maybe that person’s ego or you know, I, you know, I’m there to support and to be of service and that’s that’s really what I’m there for. And I think that it’s it’s not to prove that I’m really good at this or you know, and I am but you know, that’s not my agenda. My agenda is to be supportive and to be of service. And I think it’s if I’m going to have an agenda, it’s a good one to have.

Heather Clark 

I completely agree. And what I like is that you’re not there to be seen as good at what you’re doing. You’re just simply there to be good at what you’re doing. Like it’s not about you. Being there instead of seen to be there such a difference.

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah.

Heather Clark 

Um, I want to take just a second to call out how in one of our previous discussions you had shared how it’s a rebirthing experience, but not the rebirthing experience that people might relate to. Would you spend just a moment sharing why this is a rebirthing experience and how it’s saying oh, there’s Nope,

Lydia Mandell 

there’s no What was that?

Heather Clark 

The pillows in the auto none of that. No,

Lydia Mandell 

no, no. So so so here so this is rebirthing breathwork. And this was created in the 70s in San Francisco by someone named Leonard Orr and Sondra Ray. Leonard or is no longer with us. But Sondra Ray is still sort of the mother of this type of breath work and on it. So So when, when it first started, Leonard notice that he started to have birth memories when he was breathing a certain way. So he thought, wow, maybe this is a way to help people. So most people, um, I think in the in the 70s. When this was happening, a lot of people hadn’t done a lot of work on themselves. They hadn’t been to therapy. They hadn’t, you know, done healing work. But by the time they had gotten to this, so they were having full on birth memories and stuff like that, but we didn’t create a situation for that.

Lydia Mandell 

So that’s the difference. We’re not trying to elicit any kind of response. Somebody may have a memory that they forgot about. It could be a joyful memory or sad memory while they’re doing this type of breath work. Also we do two water breath work where we’re in the water, either cold in a pool or warm and warm tub face down with a snorkel which is really cool because it it really the cold water elicits more of a like a response around body mastery and and how to how to have more frustration tolerance and things like that. And the warm water is does kind of create more of a birth like atmosphere, but but the rebirthing that you were talking about, that we are not was called rebirthing therapy and it was something that was created under the guise of some mental health therapy where they actually like swaddle people and people. Bad things happen. But that is not what I do.

Lydia Mandell 

Mine is really focused on the breath, the breath is the main thing. And it’s not about saying, Oh my god, you know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna remember your birth right now because that you know, some people do. But it’s really about having more aliveness in your body, moving through negative energies and responding in a positive way to something that we call the death urge, which is really those those parts of yourself that say, Oh my god, I can’t do that, or I’m not good enough. And, you know, we get into a lot of, you know, work around what your core beliefs are, and how to strategize ways through the breath to move beyond those core beliefs about yourself negative core beliefs.

Heather Clark 

I, I love this so much. It’s almost like this is simply a tool for transformation. And if you happen to remember your birth, that’s cool, but that’s really about a likeness actually.

Lydia Mandell 

It’s not necessary. It’s not it’s not required. You know, you don’t get a gold star if you remember your birth.

Heather Clark 

There’s no Oh, Congratulations, you’ve done it, right. It’s like that. Sounds like showing up and trying it is doing it right.

Lydia Mandell 

Exactly. I always tell people, there’s no wrong way to do it. I’m here to support you, I’ll help you and your process. And that’s really true.

Heather Clark 

What, what is a circular breath.

Lydia Mandell 

So circular breath is a breath. So it’s a deep, full inhale and a relaxed exhale, followed by a deep, full inhale and a relaxed exhale, so that you’re not stopping and starting between the breaths, it’s more like, if you can imagine like, like an infinity symbol. That’s kind of how it goes. It’s like out and back in and out and back in or like a wave that goes out to sea and then back in and back, you know, just back and forth. And so it creates a lot of oxygen in the body which brings a lot of you know, vitality and energy. And some people when they’re finished with a session will say wow, I feel like I want to run a marathon, but I’m also really relaxed. So it brings both things to your body which is a really really cool outcome. And I that’s one of the things I love about it the most is you know, I have a lot more mental clarity and I feel really grounded in my body when I you know, when I do breath work for myself, or you know, I’ve witnessed a lot of people saying I’ve never felt this like clear and present in my body.

Heather Clark 

That’s not such a bad outcome is it? That’s how is it different from Grof breathing?

Lydia Mandell 

Um, I think that like the holotropic breath is more I mean, there’s there’s loud music, there’s, you know, sometimes other sensory stimulation lights and things and so it’s, there’s there could be nothing None of that it can just be quiet. Sometimes I’ll play soft music. But generally this type of breath work is done without any bells and whistles. It’s all about the breath. And so I think sometimes with other types of breath, which I, which are fine and I, I prefer this because I feel like it’s not trying to elicit something or rate, you know, kind of create some kind of drama around it. And one of my teachers always says, you know, drama doesn’t release trauma, which is I agree with that. 100%

Lydia Mandell 

You know, so I like that it’s sort of bare bones and we’re just, we’re down to the breath and people can lie on the floor and breathe. Um, you don’t need any special equipment. And, you know, sometimes I’ll play music, if I’m doing a group, just to if we’re working on a specific topic, I do a women’s breathwork group every month. Now I’m doing it online, but I was doing it locally where I live. And so sometimes we’ll talk about a particular topic, like, you know, self love, or we’ll talk about body image or something along those lines or anything, really. And I might have music that goes along with the theme just to, you know, to offer during during a group breathwork session. But generally, I mean, it’s, it’s done without any of that.

Heather Clark 

It sounds like the intention is different. A lot of times the holotropic, Grof breathing, it’s in order to, like there’s a different end point. And it sounds like the end point for the whole point of what you’re doing the intention is, is to breathe, which then as a byproduct, you know, might have some memories but certainly has more alive nets, you know, but the intention is to breathe. Do I kind of have that?

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah, it’s to it is To create more aliveness in your body so that you have more presence in your body, so that you’re aware of shifts and changes that are happening in real time. You know, throughout the day, like if you’re more grounded in your body, you know, you’re going to notice things. I found that it really jacked up my intuition and a really good way of just like, wow, I’m really much more intuitive now that I do this regularly. Because I think it gives your mind a rest. You know, because it’s getting you into your body and once you’re in a rhythm, you know, you may have some people have, you know, visual things that happen they get to they see things you know, and you know, with their eyes closed, like a dream. Some people have bodily sensations. And you know, it’s it’s all different, but it’s the thing about it that I love is just that it’s it’s all whatever’s there for you in your own body. It’s it’s not about any external sources, necessarily, so it’s not about music or how loud the music is or how fast the lights are flashing or, you know, that kind of stuff. So it’s not meant to elicit any particular risk or elicit any particular response.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, and it grounded in your body because yeah, that will certainly help open up the intuition. And it sounds like it’s a reconnection to the body as well.

Lydia Mandell 

Most definitely. Yeah, I, I know that for me, that was it was one of the things that got me way the heck back in my body. Because I was, you know, I was, you know, in graduate school, and then I got a job and then I was working. And then I was teaching and I was doing all these things that were the like, the thing that I thought was the next right step for me, or the next logical step, but I was not in my body at all. I was in my head. Almost 24 seven, even in my sleep, I was thinking about the existence like Ah, it was too much And so I started dancing and that helped me to get in my body. And then through that I met someone who is doing breath work. And we started working together. And then I got introduced to my, my teachers and my mentors, and my whole world changed.

Heather Clark 

I love it. And I want to hear all about this, about the dancing and like, what’s the whole origin story? How did you get to be doing what you’re doing?

Lydia Mandell 

Well, here’s my origin story. Um, so I, I think about like, how, how disconnected I was from my body and I, I think about when I was a kid, the first time that I ever, like thought Ill of my own body was I was at my next door neighbor’s house and her aunt who had no filter said Why do your legs go like this? I’m kind of knocked kneed, and I was like, What are you talking about? And she said, Why do your legs go like this? They’re not straight like hers. So I immediately thought Well, that’s because I’m fat. And that was like, and I was like 10 years old and like, and I thought, there’s something wrong with me, my legs wouldn’t do that if I wasn’t fat. So I had this whole story I created. So then I just like, ditched out of my body for like, years and years and years. Or, you know, or I would get really into exercising and dieting and doing these things. And so it’s like, thin and I didn’t know it was then and all these things happened.

Lydia Mandell 

And so, over the years, I just decided, well, I’m smart. So I’m just going to be smart. And I’m not going to pay attention to my body. So I you know, I went to college, and then I went to graduate school and I studied to be an art therapist and counselor, and then I got into working you know, as a therapist, and I liked it and I was really good at this and I was asked to teach and I was so flattered. And then I taught as an adjunct professor while I was working full time for about 10 years and on also did you know clinical supervision and all these things that seemed like the next logical step for a person in the therapy role. And what I realized at some point was even when I was exercising, I wasn’t in my body, I was in my head judging myself. So, so this isn’t right.

Lydia Mandell 

So I had an opportunity to join a group of people who are doing 60s style gogo dancing. So I got white boots and a fake ponytail and a glittery dress and eventually started my own little group. And so we would dance with bands. And that sort of led to me doing burlesque performing, we would be asked, like, Hey, you know, we really like what you do. Can you be our intermission act at this show? And I thought, well, I’d rather do it you guys are doing so. I was terrified. I was almost 42 years old, and I went and took burlesque classes and then I started to perform. And obviously it was a part time gig for me. I I was still doing therapy. So I, you know, the other piece of it was like I had this this like shield. So I’m a therapist, I’m not supposed to let anybody know anything about me. And then the other piece of it is, oh my god, I, I’m also doing this thing that nobody can also know about. If I’m, if I’m this, I can’t be this. So. So there’s a lot of disconnects happening in my life. So I continued to perform and really just made sure that I looked really different at work and in my performance life. And I was at a conference and I was, you know, connecting with different people. And I learned about breathwork. And I thought, Man, I gotta do this. So I started to do my own private sessions with someone and they led me to my teachers in Philadelphia, and I started training with them. And what I noticed when I started breathing was you know, because the dancing was great. And then the burlesque part of it was like, Alright, if you’re uncomfortable in your body, then you can’t be now because you’re in front of all these people, you know, so it really helped me to accept myself and also to accept.

Lydia Mandell 

Like, I think just being exposed to so many different women and men and in different bodies made me normalize a lot of that, and, and feel more connected in my body. So all kinds of movement is movements, the way to go for me to get reconnected. And so breathwork was a more subtle movement for me, and I love that there is movement happening in my body, but it’s not about like exertion, and you know, through dancing or something else. And so once I started to breathe, that’s when I really you know, is already kind of in a process, but that’s when I really started to move a lot of energy around, like old crap that I was carrying around about myself and, you know, finding out like, wow, you know, I really don’t think I’m important. Or I don’t think I’m enough, you know, how, how have I done all you know, I have all these accomplishments to prove them enough and I still don’t believe I am you know, but when I started doing the breath work that really helped me to get into this space to say, wow, I am creating all this. This is, you know, this is not how anyone else sees me, why am I doing this to myself?

Lydia Mandell 

I felt energized in my body, I felt like I have a way to relax, I have a way to let go and, and connect at the same time. which is which is there’s there’s like these, there’s these like, dichotomies that happen like you’re letting go but of stuff, but you’re also connecting deeply at the same time. And I love that about this work. So for me, as I started to breathe more, I started to connect with that community and to be with people who could just show up exactly as they were and to to breathe with each other, and to hold space in such a profound way, made me feel like I was home.

Heather Clark 

That’s so delightful. And I’m very curious about as, as you started to lean more in to the movements and the subtle movements of the breath work and really becoming fully embodied that connection to your body. How did that affect your connection? To your intuition to your soul to the Spirit?

Lydia Mandell 

Oh, wow. Um, I think it just came, it came so much more easily to me. I trusted my intuition. I know at the beginning of this work, I would think something and I said, I should really say that right now while I’m in a session with somebody, and I wouldn’t and then I realized that I needed to trust the things that came up for myself and for other people. Um, yeah, so I i feel like i was more receptive to it and more receptive to openly saying, I’m gonna connect with my soul right now or I’m, this is what I’m doing versus trying to hide that part of myself because, you know, I had this sort of persona to sort of uphold I was, you know, this, I think for a long time as a younger person and, you know, even into like my 40s and now I’m 52 and, um, you know, was this sort of like you’re this sort of aging punk rock, you know, woman artsy chick, and I was like, I’m really pretty Woo, in a lot of ways. You know, I’m really enjoying connecting to that that really deep part of myself that soulful part of myself, so I feel like that the breath took me an extra step further into my body and beyond, like, into into my, you know, the deeper realms, I guess.

Heather Clark 

Do you think being able to more easily access those deeper realms Do you think that has to do with? Is it more about being more fully embodied? Is it more about the practice of dropping judgment? Is it more about simply being more present? Or what do you think?

Lydia Mandell 

Well, it’s definitely about the present being more present. I think the more present I’m in my body, the more present I can be in my mind and, and have the ability to connect is more easily because I think when too many things are disconnected, then nothing connects. So So for instance, on so so definitely presence, you know, and I also and I just totally forgot your question. I’m sorry. I was like, I was like in there. It’s like, oh, what did you really say?

Heather Clark 

 I’m just I’m really poking around to better discover at least what for you the experience was of what the underlying mechanism of the deeper connection to intuition.

Lydia Mandell 

Well, I feel like when I, when I feel completely present and embodied, my whole self shows up for me. So So if I’m not embodied, I feel like I feel like my head is like untethered. And but when you know, I can tell when I’m disconnected because I’m up in my head and sometimes I even talk to myself out loud. But when I’m fully embodied, and when I noticed and I have to like regroup and get back in, then it feels like I can access I can access intuition and soul so much easier. It’s definitely about embodiment for me and presence being present in my body.

Heather Clark 

Do you have an this is a little bit of an unfair question. Do you have a quick and easy way that you can describe embodiment for people?

Lydia Mandell 

So So here’s how I would describe embodiment embodiment is … wow

Heather Clark 

it’s totally not fair but…

Lydia Mandell 

I’ll tell you some ways that I if I’m feeling disembodied um I might get on my little rebounder trampoline because that gets me like back in my body. I think feeling embodied to me feels like everything is integrated your mind your body your soul your when you’re when I’m fully embodied it for me it feels like my intuition is on point. I can move in space and feel free and not judgmental. There’s definitely definitely a non judgement piece in the in embodiment for me, is trusting and loving the body that you’re in right at this moment.

Heather Clark 

I really like how non judgmental keeps coming up. I love it because I It sounds like embodied is a different way of saying in the flow.

Lydia Mandell 

Yes. For me it is. Definitely.

Heather Clark 

And do you find it similar for your clients as well? Or maybe are there different ways this tends to show up for people?

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah, I think I’ve, I’ve had clients who, you know, once, once they they recognize what it feels like to be embodied and their breathing and they really get into this flow of, of breath. It’s like, oh, wait a minute, this is a completely different state. Like, I had no idea that I could do this for myself. And it’s, it’s pretty amazing. I think that maybe they don’t call it embodiment. I mean, it’s what I would call it. But being fully embodied, is it’s also about freedom. It’s, it’s about freeing yourself to, to explore inward and outward

Heather Clark 

Do you find that people and let me set this up a little bit more. So you know how when things get bad, we can put up with it to a certain point and then we’re just like no more. That’s like we’re lower limit. And I’m Gay Hendricks’ book, The Big Leap. If anybody hasn’t read it, he introduces the concept of the upper limit where when things get too good, there comes a point where we can no longer tolerate it. So are you do you discover that your clients tend to hit an upper limit with oh my goodness, this breathing is amazing. I’m fully embodied and it must stop immediately.

Lydia Mandell 

Well, it’s interesting that you say that because I think some people you know, feel that way and then when they when they don’t feel good or worried that it’s gonna, you know it, oh, it stops you know, it’s not working anymore. But I think that, um, there is a there is an awareness sometimes when when people feel really good, that they’re, they’re almost afraid is there it’s not going to last or It’s just too good. And I can’t tolerate this because I, you know, they might be feeling that they can’t tolerate it because it’s unfamiliar to you know, and and I haven’t I haven’t really had anybody say to me, I just don’t want to do this anymore because it’s too good. But I have had, you know, people say, Wow, I’m feeling really good, and I’m not used to it. And I’m not sure what to do with that.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, cuz there’s a lot of people that it’s not typically socially appropriate to say something like, this feels amazing. And I don’t want to do any more. Like that would require, I think, a level of self awareness that maybe not everybody has so that you can kind of divine what’s going on from their behaviors, but I just wondered if you had seen that and then how, how do you assist someone to walk through that?

Lydia Mandell 

So if I, one of the ways that I assist people to walk through that is I usually I talk to them at the beginning of our work together and say that, you know, 10 Sessions is the recommended number of sessions, so that they have an expectation that they’re not going to just do this forever, and that they can take it on their own. So that if they were, you know, I want them to feel better than they did when they started. So I think sometimes setting that intention for that, you know, that it might not be that many or, but that’s a recommended number, I think sets the tone, but when they’re in that feeling, what I’m, you know, I try to help people to know that they have, they have access to this, you know, on their own, that they can do this or not do it depending on what they need. So offering them some autonomy around around the practice.

Heather Clark 

I was just wondering because, well, for a lot of reasons, because sometimes there’s different ways to walk. through it, and sometimes you just breathe your way through it and then let your body kind of dictate things and I just. And then when people who are very — oh, let’s say in their heads, you know where their energy is this big giant Thought Bubble above them. Do you find that they have some resistance to the practice? Or do you find very naturally in they’re like, Oh no, why haven’t I done this my whole life? Or?

Lydia Mandell 

I would say both. I mean, there are people who, you know, show up and they’re really excited to do something different. But the resist the resistance is kind of normal. I would say, I think there’s definitely resistance when we hit up on specific issues that might be difficult or even resistance with with feeling too good. Like you were saying before, you know, sometimes when people start to feel really good they start there can be creation of issues or problems or roadblocks put up, because the good feeling doesn’t feel comfortable and familiar. Yeah, so what I would do to process through that is really help them, you know, to breathe through it and to just just name it, what is it, you know, if they, if they’re able to name it, to talk about what’s, you know, I am afraid that I’m going to feel too good like to actually say the words if that’s what’s up for them, you know, and letting them come to that conclusion with you know, with a series of questions and, and, you know, continuing to breathe as we’re processing.

Heather Clark 

Love that. So, you’ve talked a little bit about intuition, and I would like to know more about how you bring this to your work. And, and what’s the role of intuition not only in your life, but in the life of your clients?

Lydia Mandell 

Well, I think the role of intuition in my life has expanded over the past probably 15 years. I think I didn’t trust my intuition for a very long time. And then when I started to actively engage my intuition so through different processes and for you know, doing soul practices where I’m you know, connecting every day that really has helped me to to step into that soul place and and into my intuition so that when I feel something, I trust what I’m feeling for most of my clients. Some of them don’t claim to be intuitive or they don’t might not be trusting their intuition and others come to me already in a practice of using their intuition, so it really varies. But in the work that we do together, I encourage people to trust you know that their their breath will will allow them to be closer to their intuition.

Heather Clark 

And I’ve just wondered, has anybody come to you specifically with Look, I’m looking to deepen and expand my intuition. Let’s do breath work, or does it? Does it typically not happen like that?

Lydia Mandell 

It’s happens both ways. You know, like that and not like that. So yeah, I’ve had people who do, you know, other types of spiritual work come to me to, to, or or actually people sometimes when folks are, are in the spiritual realms a lot, they’ll come to me to get back in their bodies more so. So I’ve had that happen as well.

Heather Clark 

I’m just laughing because I can, I can think of some times where people who spend a lot of time doing spiritual work and channeling and things like that. It’s my opinion that when they get less embodied, like the power of their message, I guess for me personally tends to wane or doesn’t resonate or like there’s something up there.

Lydia Mandell 

Trying to like it’s it’s really beautiful to live in those like upper realms and all that stuff. But um, the, I think for me, I need to have like, personally I need to be embodied if I am going to use my intuition to work with other people, because living up there is great, but like living in these human bodies and connecting to our humaneness is really part of that healing process.

Heather Clark 

Well, it’s, um, it sounds to me like it’s more of a fully embodied life. Right? If you just want to do one slice of life and be in the spiritual realms, that’s great. There’s nothing wrong, right? I

Lydia Mandell 

don’t know, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. A lot of time out there. But I feel like sometimes, like you were saying, like sometimes how the message gets a little watered down on, you know, if, you know, so I like the idea of creating embodied intuition.

Heather Clark 

Mm hmm. I love the whole idea of embodied intuition because at first blush, it sounds like Well, what do they have to do with each other? But you know, obviously, through our conversation, I think it’s very clear. And then it at least it’s my personal experience. Maybe this isn’t everybody’s experience. But when intuition comes through, if it’s more embodied, it’s it has tangible applications. It isn’t a Oh, yeah, that’s a great idea, or Oh, that’s inspiring, because that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I also prefer the that’s inspiring. And now what can I do with it? Right, where the rubber meets the road? How do we use it?

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah, yeah. And so like when I when I’m working with clients will, will do all the intuitive stuff, they’ll do their session, but we talk about like, what are you going to do with this information? And how will you use it so it may be a writing process, it may be working with affirmations, it may be doing an embodied practice or movement. practice in between sessions, so that so that they have some they have follow up and continuation of what we’re doing so that it gets so it lands better in their bodies and, you know, kind of creates opportunities for more intuition to kick in and for them to trust themselves. That you know, I you know that their intuition as is, is there for them.

Heather Clark 

Love that. Um, so what do you think it does when people are stuck? Do you think that’s about not hearing their own intuition or disconnection from divine or, like preordained something or other what’s what do you think this is about for people in general?

Lydia Mandell 

Well, I think that a lot of things come into play. So definitely disconnection from the divine. And I think when sometimes when people are stuck, that it’s really it can be about old stories. They’re just replaying over and over and over and over about who other people have told them they are. I find that a lot and in the work that I do that folks are replaying who they’ve who they’ve sort who they’ve been told they are, and then internalize that and not realize that they they live out they can live outside of that story.

Lydia Mandell 

So I think when people when they’re stuck, certain things are happening. So they’re stuck in the story. They’re stuck in, in a core belief, negative belief about themselves, or they’re stuck in resistance to change because of the idea that if I stay the same, I know what to expect. If I change or start to change. I you know, it’s too scary.

Heather Clark 

And do you think that’s a conscious thing? Like oh, no, I am actively resisting this because it’s too scary?

Lydia Mandell 

Absolutely not. No, no.

Heather Clark 

But I was going to call you out if you said yes, I was like, I disagree, but, go on

Lydia Mandell 

know, I think it’s it’s definitely when you start to talk about those things, or even do an exercise where someone is working through that, and allowing them to come to their own conclusion about it. It’s, it’s, it’s one of those like, aha moments like, wow, oh my god, I had no idea that, you know, this story that somebody told me, you know, 30 years ago is–I’m still living that. And it’s, it’s, it’s sort of like this, this huge wake up call when you can process through some of those things. And, and get people in their bodies to move that energy and to notice where they’re storing it because people will say, wow, you know, I just, you know, I really processed that thing. And now I have all this space in my chest or I have all this space in my stomach or I feel really looser in my hips or, you know, so it really depends on you. where they’ve been holding some of that stress too

Heather Clark 

Just remembering a time a long time ago, I was doing yoga and this has been Oh, ages ago. Before I got woo at all. Yeah.

Heather Clark 

Like, and I did a particular stretch, and I just thought this is so strange to be bursting into tears about this. Like, what is going on? And you know, and the Google was there to help, but right, like, what is this? So I just think it’s really interesting because now it’s like, right, totally held in the body got that. Just remembering a time when I didn’t immediately know. So when somebody is in resistance, it let’s say, from a coaching perspective, what would you recommend to get them through it because maybe they’re like, obvious I want to change but based on this set of conditions, clearly it’s resistance. But I can’t get anything done.

Lydia Mandell 

Right? Um, I, for me, what I what I would do is to, you know, offer, you know, a line of of, you know, questioning, just a gentle questioning around, um, what happens if you stay the same? And what happens if you change and to also and to work with them around? Like, what are the payoffs of staying the same? Like, what are you, you know, what are the things you’re actually getting out of this? So maybe they get to feel safe, or maybe they get to stay invisible or on, you know, finding out like, what are the what are the payoffs and what are the trade offs, like if I, if I put myself out there, and I and I work through this, what if I stay the same? I think that’s something that I’ve seen in people who have a lot of resistance is what if I do all this work and Nothing changes. And I always say, if you do all this work, something will probably change. Yeah.

Heather Clark 

I see. So it’s not exactly reasoning with people, but it is engaging their reason.

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s not trying to get them, you know, like strong arming them and say, All right, now we know what it is. So you’re gonna do it or not, you know, it’s more about like, like, how are you going to do this? Like, what do you what do you feel and also kind of like using some gentle power to push folks in it, not to push them but to kind of gently prod them I guess, in a direction that they want but they’re too afraid to go and and, you know, offering things to do to manage that. So whether it’s you know, doing a soulful practice or meditation or moving their bodies every day in conjunction with Using an affirmation or something like that, so so there’s a variety of things, but I think there’s definitely resistance, especially when things start to get better. I do notice that it freaks people out a little bit. Freaked me out. Like, oh my god, I’m better I’m gonna have to sustain all this betterness

Heather Clark 

“Sustain all this betterness”– I love it!

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah, and I feel like that sometimes is, is something that’s really scary is if I’m better, I’m doing better than I was, then I must sustain this because I felt like crap before so now I have to be happy all the time. Or now I have to be a certain way and I stress with people you know, it’s it’s normal to have all sorts of emotions and, you know, just you know, so so to end to just really, really bring it down to earth that as you know, that as human beings we are wired for different feelings and different experience. And that when you’re feeling better, it’s great. And it doesn’t, but it doesn’t mean that you’re going to be on this high all the time. And it’s that’s not sustainable anyway to be, you know, way, way up to, you know where your adrenaline’s pumping, you’re feeling great. You know, I mean, that’s nice, but that’s not a human experience either.

Heather Clark 

Well, it gets a little toxic when you’re trying to maintain that.

Lydia Mandell 

Exactly.

Heather Clark 

But be I love this the whole How will I sustain my betterness because when people improve that necessarily, it shifts their identity. It shifts our relationship with themselves, it shifts the relationship with the outer world. And the ego tends to flip out, and oh my God, who am I now and even when things get better, it can trigger an identity crisis, which is unbelievably stressful, but it’s it’s not usually very socially acceptable to be like, Oh, I’m stressed about getting better.

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah, it’s not It’s like, I feel so good. I can’t stand it, you know, like, what do you do? Nobody wants to hear that. But I think it’s a reality it’s a reality for a lot of people because, um, you know, if you’ve been living in a state of feeling disconnected, either disconnected from the divine from yourself from other people from on, you know and out feeling good about yourself and suddenly you’re in this space where you feel immense connectivity, then it feels really weird. And, um, there is a tendency to have resistance, because staying stuck can feel easier and may lose some you know, they may lose some relationships along the way because they’re different and they don’t have people to commiserate with anymore because they don’t want to

Heather Clark 

When you drop complaining as the currency it does shift things. And I’m just thinking people who like a lot of my clients that have recovered from burnout, sometimes people come really in bad shape, like really in bad shape, and they definitely want to feel better. Like, I’m clear on that. And then they get to a point where it’s like, there’s a plateau, there’s a hang up. Right? It’s almost like, and it’s just for our conversation. I’m clear that it’s not simply the this is changing my identity and all of that, but the whole, what will I do with the betterness I’m wondering if people are taking that on as an obligation when it isn’t. It’s like you’re not obligated there. That’s fine, right? This can go or you

Lydia Mandell 

can take this wherever you want. Exactly. And I think it’s the betterness as we’re calling it, can feel really scary. It can feel so scary if you’re if you’re used to being in a different in a state of like you’re saying like people who are exploring burnout and I know that I’ve definitely experienced burnout. Like, you’re, you’re on this like hamster wheel and you’re, you know, in your head 24 seven and your body’s depleted and all these things and and then you start to feel better. And it’s like, Ah, you know, your system doesn’t know what to do with it. And yeah, and it can be it can be quite disconcerting.

Heather Clark 

It, it can and then the other thing I think is interesting is that a lot of times, I think the exhaustion comes on as a gift. Because people are, tend to be this isn’t always the case. But in general, when you’re doing something that gets you burned out, it’s because it’s very misaligned for you. There’s something going on that just doesn’t work for you. And the only thing that gets you to stop is crippling fatigue. So when you start to feel better…

Lydia Mandell 

Or getting sick

Heather Clark 

Or getting sick or like something something else is going to happen? So then as you feel better until a person takes balanced responsibility, it’s almost like they’re taking on the responsibility and obligations again, that’s going to get them back in the same thing. But But yeah, shifting how you relate, and I really think shifting to this embodiment, because as you describe it, I have a tangible sense that it’s a much more powerful place to be fully embodied, to be fully present. And to like, drop the judgments. Right.

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah. And, and you know, yeah, the the embodied piece is so important because it’s, it is about dropping the judgments and it’s about being in your power in a way that doesn’t have to be forceful. So in some more gentle kind of power, and show it you know, showing up fully in your body in your mind and your spirit your soul, and, and feeling like a complete package versus all these compartmentalize different pieces that Don’t that just knock up against each other but don’t quite Connect?

Heather Clark 

Yeah, I love that. So tell me Lydia… What does it mean to you to be unshakable?

Lydia Mandell 

To me to be unshakable is to Hmm, oh, there’s so many things.

Lydia Mandell 

So for me to be unshakable, as this kind of brings me to, like, when I think about, somebody asked me what my values were and, and I, it was funny because they all seemed like these dichotomies. So I said, you know, you know, it unshakeable means to be to me to be like, gentle but also powerful, you know, to feel free but also feel grounded. You know, to feel like earthy but also in my magic, and, you know, to have an equal amount of intuition and embodiment when I feel unshakable I have all every all of those all of the parts of myself in alignment. So you know my mind my soul my body I feel when I’m when I’m doing movement or dancing I feel unshakable because everything has to work together

Heather Clark 

and is it has to work together or

Lydia Mandell 

everything has to everything works together in a beautiful harmony maybe that’s a better way to say it. Because everything does work together. Yeah.

Heather Clark 

Like picking it apart trying to fully understand You didn’t say anything wrong.

Lydia Mandell 

Great. I’m glad you did that because I was like wait, it doesn’t have to, it just does.

Heather Clark 

Yeah, and and that’s the difference. It’s not like alright, everything get an order. It’s more like oh, it it. As you share it. It has the sense to me like a discovery that everything is already working together in an order. And then the unshakability arises out of that, that’s lovely.

Lydia Mandell 

Yeah.

Heather Clark 

And yeah, okay. And I just, and I love that you’ve shared these values. And I love that you’ve acknowledged that for a lot of people that has a sense that they’re opposites. But boy they are not like gentle and power and I would suggest that that version of power that’s gentle and steady is a true power. So I just, I love this, how has knowing these values and operating from them, helped you be unshakable?

Lydia Mandell 

I think just being being really clear about my values, what my values are has helped me because I, I think that I had this idea that I had to be one thing or, you know, like, I have to pick three values and I thought, well, they don’t all make sense together. And so once I started to notice that like, and also another value I have is to bring is playfulness and clarity. So sounds like all Like these opposites that aren’t opposite, but knowing what my values are, helps me to, to show up in my work in a way that’s in alignment all the time. Whereas before when I was like, I know my values are, you know, it was hard to know like, oh, here’s this playful part of myself here’s this part that uses the intuition but knowing them as a package helps me to feel solid on solid ground when I’m when I’m working with people when I’m living my own life. And also to use it as a as a compass point to you know, around like, how am I living my life? Am I living according to my values, just on a regular basis like in my home or you know, outside of my home?

Heather Clark 

Beautiful, beautiful, thank you so much. Tell us where we can find you.

Lydia Mandell 

So my website is LydiaMandell.com. You can find me at lead Lydia Mandell on Instagram. And at Lydia Mandell. breathwork on Facebook. I’m also on LinkedIn as Lydia Mandell.

Heather Clark 

Beautiful. Thank you so much. And for everybody, those will be in the show notes as well, in case you couldn’t find a pen quickly enough, and it’s been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Lydia Mandell 

Thank you for having me. It was so much fun talking to you. It’s delightful to speak with you as well.

Heather Clark 

Thank you so much for listening to Unshakable Being. You’ll find more information in the episode show notes at unshakablebeing.com. Subscribe to the podcast and share with your friends. May you be unshakable, unstoppable, and vibrant again. Until next time.